kragan Posted February 6, 2021 Posted February 6, 2021 Hi All, I have a mildly annoying issue and looking for input/advice on how to solve. Appreciate any input on what to try to resolve the issue. The setup - I have an LED troffer light fixture that's dimmable via a 10V control interface. I have the troffer wired to an Insteon Ballast Dimmer 2475DA2 Ballast Dimmer's Relay controls 120V to troffer Ballast Dimmer's 10V wired to the Troffer's 10V interface The 2475DA2 ballast dimmer is a responder to a scene. The scene is controlled by - a 2477S switch (this switch is capped and doesn't control a connected load) one of the scene buttons on a 2334-2 keypadlinc 8 button dimmer (The keypad's built in dimmer is wired to control a separate load/fixture and this load isn't tied to the ballast dimmer's scene) The LED troffer is very bright when at 100%. The troffer is in a small area, so I only need 40% brightness max. Therefore, I have the scene setup to turn the troffer on to 40%. The Issue- When I turn the scene off, the troffer responds but takes a few tenths of a second where it flickers and then emits a brighter flash before going completely off. I'd like to find a solution that can turn the troffer off (from 40% to zero light output) without the momentary flickering and flash that currently is occurring. I have the ramp rate set to 0.1 seconds on the scene/devices (this appears to be the lowest value that can be configured). I've tried tweaking some settings and observed the following - If I setup the scene for 100% brightness, turn on the scene, then turn off the scene - the troffer will turn off quickly without any noticeable/objectionable flickering or flashing. I would be happy if I could get this same behavior to occur when turning off the scene when it's set to 40% brightness. I've tried experimenting with the 2475DA2's options for the 0-10V settings in the device group settings (for example, turning Group 1 'On Level Volts' to lower values like 3.62) but that didn't seem to have any effect on the troffer's brightness when the scene was set to 100% instead of 40%. I question whether there could be any settings I'm missing to resolve my issue or possible different configuration I could try in my ISY? Or does this sound like a problem that will need to be tackled via a hardware solution like rewiring to control the fixture differently or a completely new light fixture?
Teken Posted February 7, 2021 Posted February 7, 2021 Hi All, I have a mildly annoying issue and looking for input/advice on how to solve. Appreciate any input on what to try to resolve the issue. The setup - I have an LED troffer light fixture that's dimmable via a 10V control interface. I have the troffer wired to an Insteon Ballast Dimmer 2475DA2 Ballast Dimmer's Relay controls 120V to troffer Ballast Dimmer's 10V wired to the Troffer's 10V interface The 2475DA2 ballast dimmer is a responder to a scene. The scene is controlled by - a 2477S switch (this switch is capped and doesn't control a connected load) one of the scene buttons on a 2334-2 keypadlinc 8 button dimmer (The keypad's built in dimmer is wired to control a separate load/fixture and this load isn't tied to the ballast dimmer's scene) The LED troffer is very bright when at 100%. The troffer is in a small area, so I only need 40% brightness max. Therefore, I have the scene setup to turn the troffer on to 40%. The Issue- When I turn the scene off, the troffer responds but takes a few tenths of a second where it flickers and then emits a brighter flash before going completely off. I'd like to find a solution that can turn the troffer off (from 40% to zero light output) without the momentary flickering and flash that currently is occurring. I have the ramp rate set to 0.1 seconds on the scene/devices (this appears to be the lowest value that can be configured). I've tried tweaking some settings and observed the following - If I setup the scene for 100% brightness, turn on the scene, then turn off the scene - the troffer will turn off quickly without any noticeable/objectionable flickering or flashing. I would be happy if I could get this same behavior to occur when turning off the scene when it's set to 40% brightness. I've tried experimenting with the 2475DA2's options for the 0-10V settings in the device group settings (for example, turning Group 1 'On Level Volts' to lower values like 3.62) but that didn't seem to have any effect on the troffer's brightness when the scene was set to 100% instead of 40%. I question whether there could be any settings I'm missing to resolve my issue or possible different configuration I could try in my ISY? Or does this sound like a problem that will need to be tackled via a hardware solution like rewiring to control the fixture differently or a completely new light fixture? My first question is have you ever turned on the fixture without Insteon hardware involved. Meaning, how do we know it’s simply not the light fixture that has this problem?!? Having dealt with hundreds of brands and models of lights. I’ve found in many cases some fixtures have no issue turning on / off. The same fixture as seen by many here either have instant on or delay on.The same fixture also has a very defined turn off which only recently offer almost 100% to 3-4% off for that smooth fade as seen in incandescent bulbs.In between that many fixtures will (Pop) when set to different power levels. All of this doesn’t even address integrating with Insteon which use trailing edge vs leading edge power control.Keep in mind there are tens of millions of Insteon users who have been successful in using dimmable LED fixtures. While a small minority have not seen the same success.9 X out of 10 this is solved by changing the fixture / bulb to be compliant with that Insteon hardware. This is a vast departure from other makers where you use anything that is dimmable within reason!Meaning you can’t expect top notch performance and lighting from a dollar store blue light special. If you have the ability to adjust the fixture without Insteon. See and affirm what the behaviour is at 40%. As you don’t want to find out at the end of the day it’s the fixture that is the root cause.
kragan Posted February 7, 2021 Author Posted February 7, 2021 40 minutes ago, Teken said: My first question is have you ever turned on the fixture without Insteon hardware involved. Meaning, how do we know it’s simply not the light fixture that has this problem?!? Having dealt with hundreds of brands and models of lights. I’ve found in many cases some fixtures have no issue turning on / off. The same fixture as seen by many here either have instant on or delay on. The same fixture also has a very defined turn off which only recently offer almost 100% to 3-4% off for that smooth fade as seen in incandescent bulbs. In between that many fixtures will (Pop) when set to different power levels. All of this doesn’t even address integrating with Insteon which use trailing edge vs leading edge power control. Keep in mind there are tens of millions of Insteon users who have been successful in using dimmable LED fixtures. While a small minority have not seen the same success. 9 X out of 10 this is solved by changing the fixture / bulb to be compliant with that Insteon hardware. This is a vast departure from other makers where you use anything that is dimmable within reason! Meaning you can’t expect top notch performance and lighting from a dollar store blue light special. If you have the ability to adjust the fixture without Insteon. See and affirm what the behaviour is at 40%. As you don’t want to find out at the end of the day it’s the fixture that is the root cause. You're absolutely right that it could be the fixture, as I haven't tried it without Insteon hardware. My thoughts were leading me in the direction that I'll have to spend some time with the hardware troubleshooting next. However, that's more difficult than trying settings in software, so before I pull the fixture out of the ceiling and try out different rewiring options I wanted to try posting here to get additional input. Sharing more about the situation, I'm not familiar with commercial lighting fixtures and pros/cons and what brands are good/bad. With the residential fixtures in my home that have sockets for replaceable lamps, I've got a good perspective on what brand bulbs work well for the areas where I use Insteon dimmers. I picked up this LED troffer as it was aesthetically pleasing for the application I needed - filling a big hole in the area above/outside my front door where previous owner placed a 48" fluorescent fixture with a drooping plastic lens tacked up over the cutout (big eyesore). Anyway, the hardware store had this nice looking troffer fixture, it checked the mark of having the ability to dim (0-10V), LED works well in the cold and I knew Insteon had ballast dimmer supporting that. Here's a link to the manufacturer of the fixture - https://lithonia.acuitybrands.com/products/detail/229368/lithonia-lighting/vtl/vt-series-led-troffer to give some perspective. I fully understand that I may need to replace the fixture to solve the issue. If anyone has had success with similar troffer fixtures that don't flicker/flash when turning off from 40% brightness, I'm open to suggestions. As part of the renovation for this fixture - I now have a standard 2x4 cutout with a nice metal trim in the ceiling so swapping to another manufacturer's fixture would be possible. I also observed that the LED section behind the fixture lens is a Samsung PCB strip that's attached to the metal frame. So another possibility could be to gut the fixture of its LED PCB/driver and replace with something else that's more friendly with the Insteon hardware. Presently, I don't know what that LED hardware would be, so any suggestions on those lines would also be appreciated. Thank you for the suggestion and hope the above additional background helps.
Teken Posted February 7, 2021 Posted February 7, 2021 I’ll look over your link and see if there’s anything obvious. As an aside, I Beta tested this super thin tropher style fixture. I had very low expectations of the unit being able to dim smoothly, near zero shut off, and the potential of a Insteon noise maker / signal sucker! Having tested this fixture for more than seven months it has met every qualification of colour output, smooth dimming, near zero turn off. Instant on without delay and consumes very low energy especially when dimming for the task at hand.They offer absolutely no hum, buzz, flicker, pulsing at any defined level.These same light fixtures are on sale at Costco for $28 - 36.00 each. I scooped up eight of them for a mini project still in the works.
Bumbershoot Posted February 8, 2021 Posted February 8, 2021 18 hours ago, kragan said: If anyone has had success with similar troffer fixtures that don't flicker/flash when turning off from 40% brightness, I'm open to suggestions. FWIW, I concur with @Teken regarding the fixtures he describes above. I've put two of them in a closet, driven by an Insteon SwitchLink Dimmer, and they work very nicely at the dim levels I set them to -- 30% brightness late at night and early in the morning, and 80% brightness during the day and evening. 80% is plenty bright, way brighter than the 4 LED tubes that preceded them, which were brighter than the 4 florescent tubes that were originally installed in the fixtures. No hum or flicker, and they ramp up or down smoothly. 1
Teken Posted February 8, 2021 Posted February 8, 2021 FWIW, I concur with @Teken regarding the fixtures he describes above. I've put two of them in a closet, driven by an Insteon SwitchLink Dimmer, and they work very nicely at the dim levels I set them to -- 30% brightness late at night and early in the morning, and 80% brightness during the day and evening. 80% is plenty bright, way brighter than the 4 LED tubes that preceded them, which were brighter than the 4 florescent tubes that were originally installed in the fixtures. No hum or flicker, and they ramp up or down smoothly.I still can’t get over how thin these fixtures are?!? Now, the true test for me is to see how long they last in -45’C arctic cold weather.I won’t slag on them if they don’t perform in the garage. Given its well outside the manufacturers operating temperature. Normally what I see and observe in the LED bulbs / fixtures when temps remain below -25’C. The instant on may be slower to react and the apparent light output will slowly fade on. But once up to internal temperatures for a few minutes they run just fine ramping up and down if needed. Again, I have to say the greatest joy is not seeing any flicker at any defined power level. Along with zero hum, buzz, pulsing, or impact to Insteon! Having the ability to use 100% output for task lighting when needed. Or defined to some lower output level to meet time of day or mood is truly rewarding. I think the next great achievement will be to see large fixtures like these that offer adjustable colour temperature. I’ve seen a few can lights that have set and forget options but that is fixed. I’d rather see ones where a person could select the same via API control.If anyone knows of a tropher style that can do this, dimmable, and under $40.00 let me know!
Recommended Posts