Filtering line noise

[chrisb5]

Since Filterlinc's are rather hard to come by (and I've seen references to them melting sometimes - and at least one I have apparently stopped working) anyone have references to a reliable/affordable plug-in replacement to help filter out the various noise sources in the house? I have lots of questionable items running that "may" be generating noise - but no way to prove it currently. I also still have a fair amount of old single-mode Insteon devices (powerline traffic only) that "sometimes" fail to respond to commands.

I found these Greenwave filters- but can't find specs on them to see if they would help Insteon/powerline traffic - or consider that powerline traffic "noise" and block it? https://greenwavefilters.com/product/greenwave-dirty-electricity-filter/ 

Would also like to find a inexpensive-as-feasible meter to let me know how bad my power noise is and determine what steps I take actually help (and how much)... Same vendor sells a spiffy looking meter for US$130 but I have no experience with these folks and their web page specs look more like hype than science? Opinions on their meter (or recommendations for other/better -but not outrageously expensive for a homeowner) meters? https://greenwavefilters.com/product/emi-meter/ 

Thanks in advance!

-Chris

[Teken]

Since Filterlinc's are rather hard to come by (and I've seen references to them melting sometimes - and at least one I have apparently stopped working) anyone have references to a reliable/affordable plug-in replacement to help filter out the various noise sources in the house? I have lots of questionable items running that "may" be generating noise - but no way to prove it currently. I also still have a fair amount of old single-mode Insteon devices (powerline traffic only) that "sometimes" fail to respond to commands.
I found these Greenwave filters- but can't find specs on them to see if they would help Insteon/powerline traffic - or consider that powerline traffic "noise" and block it? https://greenwavefilters.com/product/greenwave-dirty-electricity-filter/ 
Would also like to find a inexpensive-as-feasible meter to let me know how bad my power noise is and determine what steps I take actually help (and how much)... Same vendor sells a spiffy looking meter for US$130 but I have no experience with these folks and their web page specs look more like hype than science? Opinions on their meter (or recommendations for other/better -but not outrageously expensive for a homeowner) meters? https://greenwavefilters.com/product/emi-meter/ 
Thanks in advance!
-Chris

https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/specialty-devices/filters.html

[Brian H]

I have not seen any information on a FilterLinc over heating and melting. It has a soldered fuse in it. I would think the fuse would blow before an overload would over heat it.

If it blows. The filtered outlet is dead the pass through outlet would still be live. I do have a 10 Amp replacement fuses but so far have not had to use them. The only difference I have seen between the 5 amp and 10 amp FilterLinc was the fuse itself. Coils, capacitors and PC board look the same between them.

I have seen the 5 amp X10 XPPF overheating and the case starting to melt. If you try and use close to the 5 amp rating or your load has peek repetitive current spikes. The 20 amp XPF from what I have seen is OK. Other than it is quite large to accommodate its coils rated for 20 amps. I don't have any experience with the PZZ01 or XPNR.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Brian H

[Brian H]

One other thing to think about.

Not all power line communications problems are noise. Electronic devices frequently have an AC rated capacitor across the Line to Neutral. It does a good job of keeping the internally generated noise off of the power lines. It also absorbs the Insteon power line signals as noise. Some electronic devices have a choke coil or common mode choke on the line side before the capacitor. It tends to keep the capacitor from absorbing the signals as noise.

Some devices that have a reputation of being signal suckers. Are AC inputs for an UPS, some TVs and radio equipment, AC inputs for computing equipment. The Filterlinc and some other model filters are tuned to the X10 Frequency that is close to the Insteon frequency or Insteon frequency. It filters the devices noise from getting back on the power lines and the Insteon signals from being absorbed by the problem device.

I have my UPS on the filtered outlet of a Filterlinc and the PLM in the unfiltered outlet on the front of it.

I also took a look at the filters you linked to and agree no specifications found. The signal testing device would show noise but probably will call the Insteon Signals as a noise source.

[Brian H]

This is from an observation of a You Tube video using a power line noise meter and a Greenwave device.

Some of the noise displayed on the meter. Was absorbed when the Greenwave noise reducer module was plugged in. It would probably absorb the Insteon signals as noise. .

The Greenwave site also says the outlet on the bottom is a pass through outlet and does not filter the device connected to it. I did see it had a 15 Amp current rating on the pass through outlet.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Brian H

[chrisb5]

Thanks. I have a LARGE variety of equipment in the house that come under the various categories I've seen as noise-generators or signal-suckers; multiple refrigerators, freezer, various fluorescent, CFL and LED lights, several UPSes, lots of computers and TVs, fans, portable HVAC units, electric blankets/space heaters, etc. spread across 3 panels and around 50 active breakers. Way too many floating around to just unplug one at a time and test -not to mention the communications doesn't fail all the time so that doesn't give me a good means of validation either.

Considering the XPPF but with only a 5A limit it wouldn't be a good fit for my larger appliances. And would really like to find an affordable meter I could use to actually determine WHICH devices are really problems and hopefully measure a difference when filtered.

-Chris

[Teken]

3 hours ago, chrisb5 said:

Thanks. I have a LARGE variety of equipment in the house that come under the various categories I've seen as noise-generators or signal-suckers; multiple refrigerators, freezer, various fluorescent, CFL and LED lights, several UPSes, lots of computers and TVs, fans, portable HVAC units, electric blankets/space heaters, etc. spread across 3 panels and around 50 active breakers. Way too many floating around to just unplug one at a time and test -not to mention the communications doesn't fail all the time so that doesn't give me a good means of validation either.

Considering the XPPF but with only a 5A limit it wouldn't be a good fit for my larger appliances. And would really like to find an affordable meter I could use to actually determine WHICH devices are really problems and hopefully measure a difference when filtered.

-Chris

It's too late now but moving forward anything that is added to the home should be tested for their impact on the Insteon network. You don't need a whole lot of fancy diagnostic tools to narrow down possible noise makers / signal suckers. In no order of relevance or importance these are things you can do with some of the tools you already have on hand or can get.

Some of the comments listed below is going to be over generalized to make a point:

- New Hardware: All new hardware should always be factory reset prior enrolling the same into the network. This will remove any test links, settings, and set the unit to its OEM default state.

- Bridging: Always complete the 4 tap beacon test as outlined by the full users manual for that specific hardware. The beacon test should be completed from both directions. If you have really old AP (Access Points) remove them as they caused problems with the later generation of Insteon.

- Blink Error: Newer hardware incorporate a blink on error so use it to identify what loads are an issue.

- ISY Series Controller: You can check the error logs to see what some of the problems are. You can use scene test Tools -> Diagnostics -> Scene Test.

- Loads: Always assume anything other than a incandescent light will be a problem. If you can turn a switch on but can't do the same in the off position that load needs to be replaced. If you see a fixture (LED, CFL) flicker, blink, strobe, replace it. If you hear hum, buzz, whine, hiss, from a load when dimmed - replace it.

You can take any portable radio that has a long antenna and tune it into a empty channel. Depending upon the type of noise, intensity, and duration you may have to use AM vs FM. Regardless, if you turn on a load and there is noise captured by the radio this tells you its in the air and possibly inject into the powerline. Keep in mind many of the Insteon hardware calls out a minimum load and type of supported load.

The most famous is using a dimmer module and there is a very faint glow from a X-Mas tree or other. The solution is to simply insert a larger load / wattage which also leads to people seeing odd behavior in their dimming switches. People will mistaken a bad load that causes stuttering / blinking / strobing when the problem is the LED bulb does not meet the minimum load stated by the maker. 

Filtering: To reduce costs of using filters implement power bars and group devices in the same area and connect just one filter. Anything that has a motor / compressor should always be wired to its own dedicated breaker. The XPNR doesn't state load it supports but many have used this small device at the load with great success. This avoids tons of wall warts and attacks the noise at the source which reduces the same to bleed into the electrical system.

PLM: The 2413S PLM should be inserted into a dedicated circuit void of any other electronics and if you have one close to the service panel - install it there. I've successfully used shielded CAT-6 or better Ethernet cable exceeding 75 feet without issue to connect to a remote ISY Series Controller. Ideally the RS-232 Serial cable should as short as possible say under ten feet. But now you know it can work in a ideal environment if done correctly.

Breakers: Once both sides of the single split phase electrical system has been confirmed as bridged / coupled via the 4 tap beacon test in all areas, floors, zones, turning off breakers to help identify noise makers / signal suckers is very helpful. Using this in conjunction of the scene test and viewing the error logs will help identify root cause.

Florescent Tube: Any EMI / RFI of sufficient intensity can be - will be picked up by a cheap florescent tube light. Mechanics have ben using this old school trick for ages to identify electrical faults in the ignition and spark systems. 

All of the above methods are available to so give it a shot . . . ?     

  

Edited March 23, 2021 by Teken

[ELA]

5 hours ago, Teken said:

 

Florescent Tube: Any EMI / RFI of sufficient intensity can be - will be picked up by a cheap florescent tube light. Mechanics have ben using this old school trick for ages to identify electrical faults in the ignition and spark systems. 

All of the above methods are available to so give it a shot . . . ?     

  

    Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G_oXcCzBqk

 

 

[Teken]

    Like this?

 
 

I knew we could count on ELA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dannyk65]

On 3/23/2021 at 11:06 AM, Teken said:

- Loads: Always assume anything other than a incandescent light will be a problem. If you can turn a switch on but can't do the same in the off position that load needs to be replaced. If you see a fixture (LED, CFL) flicker, blink, strobe, replace it. If you hear hum, buzz, whine, hiss, from a load when dimmed - replace it.

The most famous is using a dimmer module and there is a very faint glow from a X-Mas tree or other. The solution is to simply insert a larger load / wattage which also leads to people seeing odd behavior in their dimming switches. People will mistaken a bad load that causes stuttering / blinking / strobing when the problem is the LED bulb does not meet the minimum load stated by the maker. 

 

 

  

Is there any way to find out the minimum load for my switches? (2774D, 2476D, 2477DH, 2472D, 2476S, 2466S, 2876DB, 2473)

I'm experiencing sporadic flicker/dimming of lights all over the house and have spent hours reading old threads here.  Some lamps had old, non-dimmable LED bulbs connected to a dimmer switch.  Some plug into an outlet not connected to Insteon.  The fixture in a bathroom is on a simple, old on/off switch and it flickers.   

[Brian H]

non-dimmable LED bulbs should not be on a dimmer. As even at 100% ON. The AC wave is still modified around the AC Zero Crossing. That some combinations don't work well. I also know some users have them on a dimmer and no problems. So it depends on the bulb and dimmer being used.

The 24??S models are a relay output and should not have any minimum load requirements.

The full users dimmer manuals may still have information in them. I looked at a 2476D and 2476DH manual. They say no minimum load requirements . The earlier 2477D manuals also say none. The later manuals don't seem to indicate that information and say see the sales site.

I have also read some information. That some earlier hardware revisions did flicker more easily. That a output choke was changed to have less flicker. On power line communications and maybe noise pulses.

Some LED bulbs even on standard outlets where reported as to flickering on power line noise and it was the bulbs design.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Brian H
Add information

[lilyoyo1]

9 hours ago, dannyk65 said:

Is there any way to find out the minimum load for my switches? (2774D, 2476D, 2477DH, 2472D, 2476S, 2466S, 2876DB, 2473)

I'm experiencing sporadic flicker/dimming of lights all over the house and have spent hours reading old threads here.  Some lamps had old, non-dimmable LED bulbs connected to a dimmer switch.  Some plug into an outlet not connected to Insteon.  The fixture in a bathroom is on a simple, old on/off switch and it flickers.   

The product webpage on smarthome.com generally lists the minimum load required for newer devices. The owners manual for each device may have that information well. 

Older devices such as the 2476 were created before LEDs so performance will vary much more with those than with newer devices. 

The fact you're using non dimmable bulbs even though every piece of information out there states not to; doesn't surprise me that you've developed issues. There's a reason it's constantly stated. 

Hopefully the use of non dimmable bulbs with your fingers haven't ruined them. I would recommend trying a phillips warm glow bulb to see if the flickering goes away. 

Some issues may be the wiring as well. I had a house that went through the same thing (they had other stuff happening as well). Turned out the line from the outside was causing issues and the utility company had to fix

[dannyk65]

1 hour ago, Brian H said:

non-dimmable LED bulbs should not be on a dimmer. As even at 100% ON. The AC wave is still modified around the AC Zero Crossing. That some combinations don't work well. I also know some users have them on a dimmer and no problems. So it depends on the bulb and dimmer being used.

The 24??S models are a relay output and should not have any minimum load requirements.

The full users dimmer manuals may still have information in them. I looked at a 2476D and 2476DH manual. They say no minimum load requirements . The earlier 2477D manuals also say none. The later manuals don't seem to indicate that information and say see the sales site.

I have also read some information. That some earlier hardware revisions did flicker more easily. That a output choke was changed to have less flicker. On power line communications and maybe noise pulses.

Some LED bulbs even on standard outlets where reported as to flickering on power line noise and it was the bulbs design.

It honestly never occurred to me that I might need dimmable bulbs.  My house had all these switches and bulbs and stuff installed when I bought it in 2014.  I haven't set up any programs/themes for lighting and never messed too much with dimming so I just manually on/off everything and only have replaced a dead PLM and gone into admin console because the irrigation stopped randomly a couple times.  The 1-2 times I've replaced a bulb it didn't cross my mind to not grab a cheap LED for that kind of switch.

A bunch of Philips warm glow bulbs are coming today, so I hope that helps.  Thank you for looking into load minimums, I really appreciate that.  

The flicker definitely also happens on floor lamps with the little outlet adapter as well as lamps straight into wall outlets.  A bathroom fixture with 3 LEDs that runs on a simple on/off dumb switch flickers.  

50 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The product webpage on smarthome.com generally lists the minimum load required for newer devices. The owners manual for each device may have that information well. 

Older devices such as the 2476 were created before LEDs so performance will vary much more with those than with newer devices. 

The fact you're using non dimmable bulbs even though every piece of information out there states not to; doesn't surprise me that you've developed issues. There's a reason it's constantly stated. 

Hopefully the use of non dimmable bulbs with your fingers haven't ruined them. I would recommend trying a phillips warm glow bulb to see if the flickering goes away. 

Some issues may be the wiring as well. I had a house that went through the same thing (they had other stuff happening as well). Turned out the line from the outside was causing issues and the utility company had to fix

I didn't even know there were non-dimmable bulbs installed anywhere.  I've never used any dimming features so after reading every thread on this site re:flicker I learned the only thing that was dim is me.  Everything will be be soft glows later today.  

I had an electrician come over a few days ago.  I was noticing more and more flickering, googled it and didn't want to chance a fire.  He took a look at the breakers and found nothing that looked suspect, I asked about the power util company being a culprit so he looked on what he called "their" side of the breakers, too.  While he did, I asked if maybe the issue is with the home automation stuff inside and he suddenly was in a big hurry to bail.  He told me to call SCE and left.  

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

24 minutes ago, dannyk65 said:

It honestly never occurred to me that I might need dimmable bulbs.  My house had all these switches and bulbs and stuff installed when I bought it in 2014.  I haven't set up any programs/themes for lighting and never messed too much with dimming so I just manually on/off everything and only have replaced a dead PLM and gone into admin console because the irrigation stopped randomly a couple times.  The 1-2 times I've replaced a bulb it didn't cross my mind to not grab a cheap LED for that kind of switch.

A bunch of Philips warm glow bulbs are coming today, so I hope that helps.  Thank you for looking into load minimums, I really appreciate that.  

The flicker definitely also happens on floor lamps with the little outlet adapter as well as lamps straight into wall outlets.  A bathroom fixture with 3 LEDs that runs on a simple on/off dumb switch flickers.  

I didn't even know there were non-dimmable bulbs installed anywhere.  I've never used any dimming features so after reading every thread on this site re:flicker I learned the only thing that was dim is me.  Everything will be be soft glows later today.  

I had an electrician come over a few days ago.  I was noticing more and more flickering, googled it and didn't want to chance a fire.  He took a look at the breakers and found nothing that looked suspect, I asked about the power util company being a culprit so he looked on what he called "their" side of the breakers, too.  While he did, I asked if maybe the issue is with the home automation stuff inside and he suddenly was in a big hurry to bail.  He told me to call SCE and left.  

 

 

I would definitely call SCE. I'm assuming you're in the northern part of OC. The power there is in much worse shape than in South County (not saying theirs is great). Its worth calling. They'll check it for free so I would definitely say call. 

[dannyk65]

17 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I would definitely call SCE. I'm assuming you're in the northern part of OC. The power there is in much worse shape than in South County (not saying theirs is great). Its worth calling. They'll check it for free so I would definitely say call. 

I'm in Ventura County

[lilyoyo1]

That's even worse. Lol

Edited April 12, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[dannyk65]

I asked a couple neighbors and they've never had any flickering issues like me. 

[larryllix]

Many times this is loose neutral connection and then the ground connection carries the neutral current.

The ground connection varies eith weather etc. and can have stray voltages induced into it from neighboring homes or cross country high voltage lines.

Observing lights going brighter also gives

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[MrBill]

48 minutes ago, dannyk65 said:

I asked a couple neighbors and they've never had any flickering issues like me. 

Doesn't have to be 'the neighborhood'.... it might be a loose connection in your meter, or where your line connects to the neighborhood.

 

[dannyk65]

42 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Many times this is loose neutral connection and then the ground connection carries the neutral current.

The ground connection varies eith weather etc. and can have stray voltages induced into it from neighboring homes or cross country high voltage lines.

Observing lights going brighter also gives

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Roger that.  

7 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Doesn't have to be 'the neighborhood'.... it might be a loose connection in your meter, or where your line connects to the neighborhood.

 

Ok, thanks.  I'll definitely have them come take a look.  

[larryllix]

3 hours ago, dannyk65 said:

Roger that.  

Ok, thanks.  I'll definitely have them come take a look.  

Have a look at the bare or green wires around your water meter. Some water-meter techs disconnect the jumper around them and do not reconnect them properly or at all. Other things are converting a copper meter to a plastic unit that now needs a bypass jumper.

Edited April 12, 2021 by larryllix

[dannyk65]

7 hours ago, larryllix said:

Have a look at the bare or green wires around your water meter. Some water-meter techs disconnect the jumper around them and do not reconnect them properly or at all. Other things are converting a copper meter to a plastic unit that now needs a bypass jumper.

Will do.  Thanks.

Earlier today some new Philips bulbs arrived to replace the old, cheap bulbs in my house.  I started with the floor lamp in my and replaced the bulb.  Now it flickers much more often and almost dims to being off.  What should I do - I thought the new bulb would be less bad than the old... 

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, dannyk65 said:

Will do.  Thanks.

Earlier today some new Philips bulbs arrived to replace the old, cheap bulbs in my house.  I started with the floor lamp in my and replaced the bulb.  Now it flickers much more often and almost dims to being off.  What should I do - I thought the new bulb would be less bad than the old... 

I finally broke down and bought three Philips Warm-glow bulbs a few months ago. After spending $3-400 on Hue coloured bulbs and Hub, and now these warm-glow junk, I am not sure I would touch Philips anything anymore. Hue bulbs could never produce green and the warm-glow were so erratic, orange coloured,  and dimmed off about 45% brightness on my Insteon SwitchLincs. They went back to HD, but the Hue bulbs were too late and nothing better was available at that time.

Now I use about 35 MagicHome WiFi  RGBCW bulbs that sell for about $8 each for colours, and mostly whatever Costco.ca sold a few years ago. Most of my HD Cree bulbs burned out and HD discontinued selling them due to too many defects. The HD Philips regular white LED bulbs were good a few years ago.

Edited April 13, 2021 by larryllix

[MrBill]

14 hours ago, dannyk65 said:

Will do.  Thanks.

Earlier today some new Philips bulbs arrived to replace the old, cheap bulbs in my house.  I started with the floor lamp in my and replaced the bulb.  Now it flickers much more often and almost dims to being off.  What should I do - I thought the new bulb would be less bad than the old... 

I haven't bought any Phillips Warm Glow recently, but when I did several years ago they were very high quality bulbs.  I'm note sure if something has changed or if there are two kinds of Phillips warm glow: those with the little clear plastic crown looking thing inside which is what I have, and those with more filament looking insides which i think we determined in another thread was what @larryllix had when he tried them and calls junk.

About the problem you are describing tho:  It sounds like an electrical problem.  Do you have a standard plain old Incandescent bulb that you can test with?  Does it flicker?  If so you have an electrical problem.   Start by calling your power utility, report "flickering lights and partial intermittent outage".   this is not a strange call, they will get right on it.  It specifically occurs when a connector or tap has aged poorly and developed high resistance, the flickering is consistent with this condition.   

[dannyk65]

On 4/12/2021 at 4:48 AM, lilyoyo1 said:

Turned out the line from the outside was causing issues and the utility company had to fix

Turns out this was the issue and they fixed the bad neutral wire today.  Thanks again for your replies/suggestions!

On 4/12/2021 at 7:25 AM, larryllix said:

Many times this is loose neutral connection and then the ground connection carries the neutral current.

The ground connection varies eith weather etc. and can have stray voltages induced into it from neighboring homes or cross country high voltage lines.

Observing lights going brighter also gives

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This was precisely the issue and they replaced the neutral connection earlier today.  I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your advice!

On 4/13/2021 at 8:56 AM, MrBill said:

About the problem you are describing tho:  It sounds like an electrical problem.  Do you have a standard plain old Incandescent bulb that you can test with?  Does it flicker?  If so you have an electrical problem.   Start by calling your power utility, report "flickering lights and partial intermittent outage".   this is not a strange call, they will get right on it.  It specifically occurs when a connector or tap has aged poorly and developed high resistance, the flickering is consistent with this condition.   

I did exactly that:  incandescent bulb still flickered (badly) and reported to SCE using the keywords you suggested. Within two hours they were here and had fixed a bad neutral connection.  Truly appreciate your advice!