Throwing in the towel on Insteon

[swamp2]

Hi folks. Jut wanted to share my frustration and final decision here. Insteon sucks and I'm dropping it in favor of Z-Wave.

I don't have a complex system nor home, just a handful of devices in a small single family home. I have had some fairly reliable automation with Insteon over many years but it required boosters, filterlinc and ocassionally gave me fits of problems and difficulty. When things slowly became unreliable and then stop working, trouble shooting has also been very difficult. Both the ISY team and Smarthome folks have provided some support on the issue but recently resolution just did not seem possible (and I am incredibly persistent...). I had a pool pump go from reliable, to spotty to nearly unusable. Tried some Intermatic ET-NF noise filters (multiple) as the last step and still a no-go. Whether the pool pump itself, LED lights, toothbrush chargers or whatever, the system should be rock solid reliable against these forms of interference.

Based on a Z-wave whole house fan setup I added a few years back, and it being rock solid reliable, I have decided on Z-Wave

Luckily the new-ish (at least to me) GE Outdoor 240V Smart Switch with antenna solved the problem of no electromagnetic signals penetrating a metal enclosure.

Obviously, for all of those folks with great/easy/reliable Insteon systems, great for you (sincerely!). I simply could/would NEVER recommend this system/protocol for any one new to home automation, handy and experienced with computers/electronics or not.

[asbril]

Just make sure to have sufficient (non battery) Zwave devices to create a good mesh network, limit yourself to the better brands (Homeseer, GE/Jasco and sometimes Inovelli) as well as 500 or even 700 series.

[larryllix]

5 hours ago, swamp2 said:

Hi folks. Jut wanted to share my frustration and final decision here. Insteon sucks and I'm dropping it in favor of Z-Wave.

I don't have a complex system nor home, just a handful of devices in a small single family home. I have had some fairly reliable automation with Insteon over many years but it required boosters, filterlinc and ocassionally gave me fits of problems and difficulty. When things slowly became unreliable and then stop working, trouble shooting has also been very difficult. Both the ISY team and Smarthome folks have provided some support on the issue but recently resolution just did not seem possible (and I am incredibly persistent...). I had a pool pump go from reliable, to spotty to nearly unusable. Tried some Intermatic ET-NF noise filters (multiple) as the last step and still a no-go. Whether the pool pump itself, LED lights, toothbrush chargers or whatever, the system should be rock solid reliable against these forms of interference.

Based on a Z-wave whole house fan setup I added a few years back, and it being rock solid reliable, I have decided on Z-Wave

Luckily the new-ish (at least to me) GE Outdoor 240V Smart Switch with antenna solved the problem of no electromagnetic signals penetrating a metal enclosure.

Obviously, for all of those folks with great/easy/reliable Insteon systems, great for you (sincerely!). I simply could/would NEVER recommend this system/protocol for any one new to home automation, handy and experienced with computers/electronics or not.

I tried to help another guy with a pool pump control, converting it from X10 to Insteon, years back. Worked perfectly with X10 but wouldn't work at all with Insteon. My take was the control circuits were inside a 12" x 18" metal enclosure outside and you can't stick RF equipment inside a metal box, especially with a 2:3 size ratio. That is a perfect combination to burn out every radio, let alone the radio signals would never get in or out.

Many new Insteon units have facilities to disable the RF radios, no for situations like that.

Best of luck with your conversion. I hear just as many Zwave problems as Insteon problems, just different problems.

[swamp2]

31 minutes ago, larryllix said:

My take was the control circuits were inside a 12" x 18" metal enclosure outside and you can't stick RF equipment inside a metal box, especially with a 2:3 size ratio.

I was using power line networking no RF but also tried dual band just for two devices inside the box to "talk". The size of a metal enclosure is irrelevant ZERO EM radiation can penetrate a metal enclosure.

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, larryllix said:

 

Best of luck with your conversion. I hear just as many Zwave problems as Insteon problems, just different problems.

This is the one that gets me. Just had a guy who got my number from someone call me to fix their zwave system. They had switched from insteon thinking it would be better.....until it was worse!

Edited April 8, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[larryllix]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

This is the one that gets me. Just had  guy who got my number from someone call me to fix their zwave system. They had switched from insteon thinking it would be better.....until it was worse!

Zwave and Insteon both use the same frequency band and their wavelengths tune to about 12.7 inches. Putting any 915MHz radio transmitter into a 12" x XX metal cabinet may cause big problems for any electronics inside, as RF outputs inside tuned cavities, with the resonance that can occur, can destroy things with high voltage. A 2:3 ratio can be one of the worst tuned cavities for this problem.

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, larryllix said:

Zwave and Insteon both use the same frequency band and their wavelengths tune to about 12.7 inches. Putting any 915MHz radio transmitter into a 12" x XX metal cabinet may cause big problems for any electronics inside, as RF outputs inside tuned cavities, with the resonance that can occur, can destroy things with high voltage. A 2:3 ratio can be one of the worst tuned cavities for this problem.

You quoted the wrong link

[asbril]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

This is the one that gets me. Just had  guy who got my number from someone call me to fix their zwave system. They had switched from insteon thinking it would be better.....until it was worse!

The Insteon vs Zwave debate just came back to the front burner.....  Thanks but no thanks @swamp2?.  There is no ONE answer to the question. It may depend on what devices you use, how many (Zwave) devices you have, location of your ISY, personal preferences and personal experiences. You are happy with what you have, then great... you are not happy and want to change, then change but don't expect either Insteon or Zwave to be perfect.

Some swear with Insteon, others not, and some promote a mix of both.  Personally, I moved away from Insteon after bad experience with PLM. Over past few years @lilyoyo1has explained to me the benefits of Insteon and my negative feelings have softened, though not enough to move back.

Whatever makes you happy.

[larryllix]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You quoted the wrong link

It's too weird for most people to comprehend. Electrical utilities know this phenomenon well, when the voltage at the load end of a transmission line is double or ten times the supply end, due to resonance of the transmission line. Then people wonder why the insulators explode.

Radio guys also understand it with antenna technology.

[asbril]

4 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Radio guys also understand it with antenna technology.

Is that why I am both a home automation enthusiast and  Amateur Radio aficionado ?

[larryllix]

12 minutes ago, asbril said:

The Insteon vs Zwave debate just came back to the front burner.....  Thanks but no thanks @swamp2?.  There is no ONE answer to the question. It may depend on what devices you use, how many (Zwave) devices you have, location of your ISY, personal preferences and personal experiences. You are happy with what you have, then great... you are not happy and want to change, then change but don't expect either Insteon or Zwave to be perfect.

Some swear with Insteon, others not, and some promote a mix of both.  Personally, I moved away from Insteon after bad experience with PLM. Over past few years @lilyoyo1has explained to me the benefits of Insteon and my negative feelings have softened, though not enough to move back.

Whatever makes you happy.

Some swear by Insteon and some swear at Insteon.

[asbril]

Just now, larryllix said:

Some swear by Insteon and some swear at Insteon.

it shows that English is not my mother tongue.......

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, asbril said:

The Insteon vs Zwave debate just came back to the front burner.....  Thanks but no thanks @swamp2?.  There is no ONE answer to the question. It may depend on what devices you use, how many (Zwave) devices you have, location of your ISY, personal preferences and personal experiences. You are happy with what you have, then great... you are not happy and want to change, then change but don't expect either Insteon or Zwave to be perfect.

Some swear with Insteon, others not, and some promote a mix of both.  Personally, I moved away from Insteon after bad experience with PLM. Over past few years @lilyoyo1has explained to me the benefits of Insteon and my negative feelings have softened, though not enough to move back.

Whatever makes you happy.

Everything you say is correct. My distaste for zwave has nothing to do with the protocol overall. Its great. I just dont think its as DIY friendly as its made out to be and offers a less than stellar experience overall. When doing a whole house, it actually works quite well in use (just not experience).

The best system (outside of user experience) really comes down to choosing the right one for your environment, what one is trying to accomplish with it, how much work they are willing to put in it, finances, and some other things.

Simply saying I want something different because a person had problems with one is a recipe for failure as the other system may not fit a persons environment, technical skills, and other factors that come into play

[lilyoyo1]

17 minutes ago, larryllix said:

It's too weird for most people to comprehend. Electrical utilities know this phenomenon well, when the voltage at the load end of a transmission line is double or ten times the supply end, due to resonance of the transmission line. Then people wonder why the insulators explode.

Radio guys also understand it with antenna technology.

Again, you're quoting the wrong person. The op was referencing what you're talking about- not me

[swamp2]

 

On 4/8/2021 at 4:39 AM, asbril said:

...Personally, I moved away from Insteon after bad experience with PLM.

I had a crap ton of PLM problems also over the years with Insteon.

On 4/8/2021 at 4:53 AM, larryllix said:

Some swear by Insteon and some swear at Insteon.

Ha, good one!

[Mustang65]

My transition,

Home-Made (Z80/8051/Sinclair ZX1000/relays/hard-wired - early 1980's)>>>> X10 >>>> Insteon >>>> now my 1st Z-Wave+  module purchase, for evaluation. I also have had PLM issues.... I am on my 3rd one and I have one spare sitting on the shelf . I have decided that the PLM on the shelf will be the last one that I purchase. Maybe, I should go back to  home-made/wired (Arduino/Raspberry Pi), but when the kids sell the house after I bite the dust it would be a negative selling point. Wait, at that point it would not matter to me anyway.. only kidding.

The utility room work area lamps will be the first Z-Wave module victim, as those lamps get the most action each day/night. Unlike some others, and even though the house was built in 1956, I do not have any issues with line noise (Amazing). The opposite of my house up north, although, down here in Florida I do have issues with line surges from frequent lightning hits (on the electric lines) near the house. I just installed a Leviton commercial surge unit unit on the house, keeping my fingers crossed as the Florida Lightning season is fast approaching

So, I will be installing the Z-Wave module and will see how it works with ISY/Polisy and based on its performance will keep adding/replacing with Z-Wave until the next great technology comes out. Next is the Z-Wave motion sensor.... wait I need to research the reviews on it first.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Mustang65

[larryllix]

You say you have no line noise and then tell us you installed a surge unit?

Try some of these split ferrite cores for your telephone, cable TV, etc. cable entries.  They are cheap and easy to install, just snapping over cables that enter the house or at sensitive electronics, like A/V, or Ethernet routers and switches. They have helped my A/V receiver a lot with resetting and glitching audio.

https://www.amazon.ca/Ceedmon-Pieces-Ferrite-Suppressor-Diameter/dp/B07CWCSNW9/ref=dp_prsubs_1?pd_rd_i=B07CWCSNW9&psc=1

https://www.amazon.ca/BCP-Magnetic-Ferrite-Suppressor-Diameter/dp/B00V4MMIBW/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=ferrite+core&qid=1619439568&s=electronics&sr=1-9

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by larryllix

[Mustang65]

4 hours ago, larryllix said:

You say you have no line noise and then tell us you installed a surge unit?

 

OK, so on January 3rd or 10th of this year, we took a nasty lightning strike at 4AM on the Duke Energy's power lines. Some of the neighbors had some electronics damage along with us. I had a regular whole house surge protector which did nothing. My main ISY bit the dust along with other electronics. This is the third MAJOR lightning strike near our house in the last 5 years, the last one scared the crap out of my neighbor that was standing on his driveway (dumb) and the area lit up like a massive strobe light and the thunder was instantaneous. Every motion sensor in my house activated (Alarm company and Insteon). I was in the GA Mountains and my alarm co/ISY alerts were going off one by one for each sensor. Alarm company calling me, I was looking at all my cameras and saw no activity. Bridged in neighbor and he explained what happened.

After this January hit, I started investigating the house ground and was very surprised to find that the Service Panel #4 AWG ground wire was was connected to the service panel ground buss, but was going into the attic. I followed it to the area where the city water comes up out of the ground some 40 feet away and it was just hanging behind the water heater, with no connection to anything. This coincides with the work done by the plumber that replaced the city water main water line to the house about 8 years ago. It was copper pipe and he replaced it with PVC. Yup, the electric service panel had no direct ground connection. The ground wire was hidden behind the water heater.

As for Duke Energy's ground connection, I dug up the end of their 4AWG ground cable that was loose in the ground rod connector. Finally, the only possible ground was through the metal conduit connector between the Duke electric meter box and our service panel. The lock nut was not even tight against the service panel wall, which I tightened (checked for any voltage issues first). The short connecting conduit was full of paint from the previous owner, not a good connection. There had to be some sort of connection as the outlets did show a ground when tested.

Removed the 40+ feet of unused 4AWG ground wire and reused it for the following. Ground overkill?

- (1) New 96 inch ground rod connected to the electric service panels ground buss. (8' 1" from existing Duke ground rod... local code)

- (1) New 96 inch ground rod connected to my Satellite service panel ground buss.

- (1) NEW Leviton Commercial/Residential Grade protector 51120-3R  (See Below)

- (4) NEW Gas surge protectors (1 at cable modem, each sat antenna connection) (See Below)

- (1) NEW APC Surge Protector for Ethernet Data Port (between cable modem and Ubiquity controller) (See Below)

- I am still thinking of replacing the Duke Energy ground rod with a new one as this one has been in the ground since the 50's. Probably do not need to do this.

After all of this, will this protect my house's electronics... probably not but may give it a slightly better chance of some survival. Time will tell.

One last item on my Lightning Strike Prevention "To Do" list is to get a 3' in diameter Weather balloon filled with helium, a 100' thin metal cable so ISY can detect lightning, open the weather balloon enclosure top and start the motor to extend the balloon and cable 100' so lightning will use the metal cable to direct it to the ground rod holding the cable in place. Wishful planning. 

Hopefully the installed equipment will help some. I know one of the gas surge protectors is not connected as I am having an issue with that circuit and I am trouble shooting it. It may be bad, as the Sat receiver keeps searching for satellite with it connected.

Also, 3 Insteon modules, 1 wall switch and one outside module bit the dust with the lightning hit.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Mustang65

[larryllix]

11 hours ago, Mustang65 said:

OK, so on January 3rd or 10th of this year, we took a nasty lightning strike at 4AM on the Duke Energy's power lines. Some of the neighbors had some electronics damage along with us. I had a regular whole house surge protector which did nothing. My main ISY bit the dust along with other electronics. This is the third MAJOR lightning strike near our house in the last 5 years, the last one scared the crap out of my neighbor that was standing on his driveway (dumb) and the area lit up like a massive strobe light and the thunder was instantaneous. Every motion sensor in my house activated (Alarm company and Insteon). I was in the GA Mountains and my alarm co/ISY alerts were going off one by one for each sensor. Alarm company calling me, I was looking at all my cameras and saw no activity. Bridged in neighbor and he explained what happened.
After this January hit, I started investigating the house ground and was very surprised to find that the Service Panel #4 AWG ground wire was was connected to the service panel ground buss, but was going into the attic. I followed it to the area where the city water comes up out of the ground some 40 feet away and it was just hanging behind the water heater, with no connection to anything. This coincides with the work done by the plumber that replaced the city water main water line to the house about 8 years ago. It was copper pipe and he replaced it with PVC. Yup, the electric service panel had no direct ground connection. The ground wire was hidden behind the water heater.
As for Duke Energy's ground connection, I dug up the end of their 4AWG ground cable that was loose in the ground rod connector. Finally, the only possible ground was through the metal conduit connector between the Duke electric meter box and our service panel. The lock nut was not even tight against the service panel wall, which I tightened (checked for any voltage issues first). The short connecting conduit was full of paint from the previous owner, not a good connection. There had to be some sort of connection as the outlets did show a ground when tested.
Removed the 40+ feet of unused 4AWG ground wire and reused it for the following. Ground overkill?
- (1) New 96 inch ground rod connected to the electric service panels ground buss. (8' 1" from existing Duke ground rod... local code)
- (1) New 96 inch ground rod connected to my Satellite service panel ground buss.
- (1) NEW Leviton Commercial/Residential Grade protector 51120-3R  (See Below)
- (4) NEW Gas surge protectors (1 at cable modem, each sat antenna connection) (See Below)
- (1) NEW APC Surge Protector for Ethernet Data Port (between cable modem and Ubiquity controller) (See Below)
- I am still thinking of replacing the Duke Energy ground rod with a new one as this one has been in the ground since the 50's. Probably do not need to do this.
After all of this, will this protect my house's electronics... probably not but may give it a slightly better chance of some survival. Time will tell.
One last item on my Lightning Strike Prevention "To Do" list is to get a 3' in diameter Weather balloon filled with helium, a 100' thin metal cable so ISY can detect lightning, open the weather balloon enclosure top and start the motor to extend the balloon and cable 100' so lightning will use the metal cable to direct it to the ground rod holding the cable in place. Wishful planning. 
Hopefully the installed equipment will help some. I know one of the gas surge protectors is not connected as I am having an issue with that circuit and I am trouble shooting it. It may be bad, as the Sat receiver keeps searching for satellite with it connected.
Also, 3 Insteon modules, 1 wall switch and one outside module bit the dust with the lightning hit.

<photos snipped>
 

Wow! You been to hell and back. I can tell you are an electrical guy because you spell 'bus' like the brand name 'Buss' fuse company.


Those cheap ferrite beads help the little disturbances that mess things up when they are not as apparently sourced.

Nice of the water guys to cause problems and not repair properly.

4 AWG is better than the usual #6. Try to keep length and bends low for best conduction of high frequency from lightning. Don't pass through any ferrous holes in panels.

Best of luck.

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by larryllix

[apostolakisl]

@Mustang65 When I first started reading your story I immediately thought, "he must have improper grounding".  Then you got into it.  To have a surge knock out the actual ISY and not just the wall wart means something is really off.

Grounding is a PhD onto itself.  But the main jist of it is you need one and only one high quality ground.  Multiple grounds results in flow between grounds which can enter and destroy just about anything in your house.  When a strike to ground occurs, the Earth is charged and that charge drops off exponentially with distance.  So a close strike can have a huge potential difference over the course of just feet between two grounding points.  Since the wiring and other metal structures that are part of your homes ground are better conductors than Earth, the charge takes the "shortcut" through your home.

The best prevention is a faraday cage like solution, but that is pricey.  Basically, you put in a boatload of grounding rods around the entire foundation of the House and tie them altogether in a big loop and into your house ground.  Effectively, this turns the entire house into a single grounding point.  When a lightening strike charges Earth, it "lifts" your whole house as a single entity and then it drops down again altogether.  No "rocking the boat" if you will.  You see this sort of thing as well on rooftops where lightening rods ring a structure and they are all tied together and then tied down to Earth.  The idea is equalizing the potential across all points of the structure at all times and thus preventing flow of electrons within the structure.

Otherwise, make sure you have just one grounding point at your electrical panel and make sure it is a high quality one.  Make sure that you do NOT tie into other points of grounding.  Do not, for example, put a grounding rod on an outbuilding (unless it has its own service).  And if you do have separates grounds for out-structures, do NOT connect them with low voltage wires (ethernet, alarm system, cable tv, etc).  

Edited April 28, 2021 by apostolakisl