Several ZWave devices and each addiitonal makes the others more flaky

[ZSchroff]

I have a vintage 2015 ISY994i/ZW/IR PRO running 5.0.15A, and mostly an Insteon setup.

I also have a few ZWave devices (Aeotec 'multisensor' and Aeotec 'smart switch' devices).  I prefer Insteon devices for their reliability (all my Insteon devices seem to work fine with the assistance of a couple repeaters for phase bridging) but in some places I want to be able to monitor power use (for example, I have a crawlspace dehumidifier, and I want to know when it switches on so I can also switch on a fan elsewhere in the crawlspace to circulate the air to allow the dehumidifier to reach more than just the air 'near' it).  I also monitor the environment down there so I can be sure things are working well.  There just don't seem to be Insteon devices that do this (switched outlet with energy use monitoring; sensors that monitor temperature AND humidity)...

But every time I add a new ZWave device, it's a nightmare.  First, the ZWave devices act like they are transmitting using modern ciphers (512b+ blocks) with a data rate closer to X-10's 30 baud -- it sometimes takes seconds even for an on/off command to take effect (and a little longer for the confirmation to come back), and adding a new device takes a minute or more.  Ask the ISY to 'Repair Links' or 'Synchronize' and it takes at least a few minutes.  Second, for each new device I add, at least one of the existing devices gets flaky, so I have to remove it and re-add it, often this propagates once or twice, and at least once this has propagated to all of the devices.  Third, setting up a new ZWave device and then moving it even a few feet seems to destroy a large part of the network (suddenly several devices can't communicate, and removing and re-adding the new device only seems to help marginally).  Finally, putting two ZWave nodes within a foot or two of each other seems to render both almost useless (neither shows up reliably), but move them a few feet apart and they seem to work better.

Sometimes the ZWave devices just don't seem to be there.  I have none that are using battery power (all of the environment monitors are USB powered, and the USB power converters seem to be okay), but sometimes I'll look at the admin console and one or more (even one of the 'smart plugs') will be marked to indicate that it is not responding.  If I let it sit there long enough, there may be an update from it and it's no longer marked as not responding.  If I query one that is marked as not responding, it might reply and thus become okay, or I may get an error trying to communicate with it.  Seems this has gets more common every time I add a new device...

I don't see an antenna connector for the ZWave device on the ISY, but it offers an 'external antenna' option in the settings (I have it set to use the internal antenna).

As I am sure from a number of points that I have the older '300' ZWave module (system vintage, LED on the module is visible, firmware that does not support the newer module), I am wondering whether upgrading to the '500' module and the 'certified' firmware for the ISY would be worthwhile?

Is there something else I can do to make this ZWave mess more reliable (or at least less flaky)?  I have tried the 'ZWave/Repair Links' and 'ZWave/Synchronize' functions numerous times and most of the time they seem to run (sometimes a node is nonresponsive and I get an error) but it does not seem to help.  I only have one ZWave device that is obscured by anything large and metallic from the ISY, and (curiously?) that one has been one of the less flaky nodes; every other device 'line of sight' is only blocked by wood frame or floors/ceilings or walls (none of which are metal), and all are within 20m 'line of sight' of the ISY, most ZWave devices are concentrated within 15m of the ISY.

[Techman]

46 minutes ago, ZSchroff said:

I have a vintage 2015 ISY994i/ZW/IR PRO running 5.0.15A, and mostly an Insteon setup.

I also have a few ZWave devices (Aeotec 'multisensor' and Aeotec 'smart switch' devices).  I prefer Insteon devices for their reliability (all my Insteon devices seem to work fine with the assistance of a couple repeaters for phase bridging) but in some places I want to be able to monitor power use (for example, I have a crawlspace dehumidifier, and I want to know when it switches on so I can also switch on a fan elsewhere in the crawlspace to circulate the air to allow the dehumidifier to reach more than just the air 'near' it).  I also monitor the environment down there so I can be sure things are working well.  There just don't seem to be Insteon devices that do this (switched outlet with energy use monitoring; sensors that monitor temperature AND humidity)...

But every time I add a new ZWave device, it's a nightmare.  First, the ZWave devices act like they are transmitting using modern ciphers (512b+ blocks) with a data rate closer to X-10's 30 baud -- it sometimes takes seconds even for an on/off command to take effect (and a little longer for the confirmation to come back), and adding a new device takes a minute or more.  Ask the ISY to 'Repair Links' or 'Synchronize' and it takes at least a few minutes.  Second, for each new device I add, at least one of the existing devices gets flaky, so I have to remove it and re-add it, often this propagates once or twice, and at least once this has propagated to all of the devices.  Third, setting up a new ZWave device and then moving it even a few feet seems to destroy a large part of the network (suddenly several devices can't communicate, and removing and re-adding the new device only seems to help marginally).  Finally, putting two ZWave nodes within a foot or two of each other seems to render both almost useless (neither shows up reliably), but move them a few feet apart and they seem to work better.

Sometimes the ZWave devices just don't seem to be there.  I have none that are using battery power (all of the environment monitors are USB powered, and the USB power converters seem to be okay), but sometimes I'll look at the admin console and one or more (even one of the 'smart plugs') will be marked to indicate that it is not responding.  If I let it sit there long enough, there may be an update from it and it's no longer marked as not responding.  If I query one that is marked as not responding, it might reply and thus become okay, or I may get an error trying to communicate with it.  Seems this has gets more common every time I add a new device...

I don't see an antenna connector for the ZWave device on the ISY, but it offers an 'external antenna' option in the settings (I have it set to use the internal antenna).

As I am sure from a number of points that I have the older '300' ZWave module (system vintage, LED on the module is visible, firmware that does not support the newer module), I am wondering whether upgrading to the '500' module and the 'certified' firmware for the ISY would be worthwhile?

Is there something else I can do to make this ZWave mess more reliable (or at least less flaky)?  I have tried the 'ZWave/Repair Links' and 'ZWave/Synchronize' functions numerous times and most of the time they seem to run (sometimes a node is nonresponsive and I get an error) but it does not seem to help.  I only have one ZWave device that is obscured by anything large and metallic from the ISY, and (curiously?) that one has been one of the less flaky nodes; every other device 'line of sight' is only blocked by wood frame or floors/ceilings or walls (none of which are metal), and all are within 20m 'line of sight' of the ISY, most ZWave devices are concentrated within 15m of the ISY.

1. The range of the ISY Zwave dongle is somewhat limited so it's best to have a Zwave repeater within 20 feet of the ISY especially if the ISY is located in an enclosed area or next to equipment that could interfere with the Zwave RF signal. The ISY does not support an external antenna.

2. The 500 series Zwave dongle has many advantages over the 300 series board, greater RF range, improved firmware, and faster communication.

I'm currently using the 500 series dongle with the latest ISY firmware with numerous Zwave devices and have not had any issues. Aeotec makes an excellent 500 series Zwave repeater which is what I use. Being that almost all non battery powered devices also act as repeaters I would first focus on the signal coming from the ISY, i.e. adding a repeater.

 

 

[Techman]

18 hours ago, Techman said:

The range of the ISY Zwave dongle is somewhat limited so it's best to have a Zwave repeater within 20 feet of the ISY especially if the ISY is located in an enclosed area or next to equipment that could interfere with the Zwave RF signal. The ISY does not support an external antenna.

The 500 series Zwave dongle has many advantages over the 300 series board, greater RF range, improved firmware, and faster communication.

I'm currently using the 500 series dongle with the latest ISY firmware with numerous Zwave devices and have not had any issues. Aeotec makes an excellent 500 series Zwave repeater which is what I use. Being that almost all non battery powered devices also act as repeaters I would first focus on the signal coming from the ISY, i.e. adding a repeater.

The current versions of the 5.X.X firmware no longer support the 300 series Zwave dongle

 

 

[asbril]

52 minutes ago, Techman said:

adding a repeater

@Techman I have made this comment many times and will repeat it here again. Rather than buying repeaters, get plug-in devices (example). Because all new non-battery Zwave devices act as repeaters, you score double by using a plug-in device. It will repeat and you can control a lamp or something else at the same time.

Edited April 19, 2021 by asbril

[ZSchroff]

11 minutes ago, asbril said:

@Techman I have made this comment many times and will repeat it here again. Rather than buying repeaters, get plug-in devices (example). Because all new non-battery Zwave devices act as repeaters, you score double by using a plug-in device. It will repeat and you can control a lamp or something else at the same time.

If this would help, it seems it already would have.  But the plug-in devices are not primarily repeaters -- they spend some of their volume on the outlet, the switching hardware, and on pretty stuff like the colourful light ring, rather than on antennae and signal boosting.  So it still seems to me that a dedicated repeater should provide a better coverage improvement than something that has to do something else as well, and if I'm not going to put an appliance or lamp or similar there, perhaps a better use of the outlet.

I have two Aeotec Range Extender 6 units (one recently moved to right next to the ISY -- less than 6 inches away,  per Techman's suggestion) and 4 Aeotec Smart Switch 6 units.  I also have three Aeotec Multisensor 6 units, all USB powered, but I expect they're probably not repeaters even this way..  The whole arrangement of the units would fit inside a 15m sphere, with the ISY toward the top of the sphere but not at its boundary.

Moving the repeater from a location on the floor below (there's still a another repeater within 12 feet linear physical from its new location) has had no apparent effect on things.

The ISY is (now) less than 6 inches clear line of sight from the first Range Extender 6, then through a floor and wall (both at an angle) to less than 12 feet physical (but about 45 feet by WiFi alliance rules about walls and floors) to another Range Extender 6, then about 12 feet physical (but another 35 feet by WiFi alliance rules about walls and floors)  to the second most flaky device on the network, a USB powered Aeotec Multisensor 6, which is 3 feet clear line of sight from an Aeotec Smart Switch 6, which is 3 feet clear line of sight from the most flaky device on the network, another Aeotec Multisensor 6.  The physical straight line distance between the ISY and the flakiest of the Aeotec Multisensor 6 units is about 25 feet, and assuming the first Multisensor 6 doesn't count as a hop because it isn't repeating, it's four hops.  Before moving the repeater to next to the ISY, it was somewhere else, but I didn't have any units beyond it, so I chose it for experimenting.

The layout is suboptimal, I'll admit, but what's beginning to bug me about placement requirements for these things is that I'm getting the impression from reading this forum that placement is insanely restrictive...  20 feet clear line of sight, a wall counts as 10 feet if the signal passes through perpendicularly, &c.  That 'effective wall thickness' looks like something I have seen from the WiFi alliance, which I think also mentions floors are effectively 15 feet thick (denser material) on normal, and increases with the tangent of the signal angle off normal.  So it's just not possible to transmit ZWave between floors without explicitly ducting the signals, unless I have an outlet within 2 feet of the floor above, and within 2 feet of the ceiling below?  With a maximum hop count of 4, that means that I probably couldn't cover all of a 2 floor 1000 square foot condominium with ZWave.  Maybe ZWave *should* have a wired option where I can use coax to run from one repeater in the middle to spoke repeaters out near the edges...?

I have two of the Aeotec Range Extender 7 units on order, just to test, but I read conflicting indications on the forum here as well.  To take advantage of anything at all to do with the new generation, everything must be new generation, else everything will run at the lowest generation of all the devices.  Does that apply even to repeater effective range?  I hope not.  I may try upgrading to the 500 series based controller in my ISY, but if the repeater range is limited by generation as well, it means I won't be able to reach the ends of my house from dead centre, on just one floor, let alone cover the other floor, crawlspace, or attic, if I have to stay within 20 feet clear line of sight equivalent and have to stay within four hops of the ISY.

 

[asbril]

@Techmanmay be more knowledgeable than I am and he could be right that repeaters are more powerful than plug-in devices. However, I still recommend to use plugin devices.  The Zwave mesh network operates better with the more Zwave devices you have. So, unless $$ is a real issue, get a few plug-in devices along the route of your most distant device and you will have a good mesh network and also add more controls to your home automation.

I started with two of these Aeotec repeaters, but pretty soon replaced them with wall switches and plugin devices. I now have more than 80 Zwave devices in my home, plus a few Kasa and Llyf devices, and my mesh network basically controls my whole home.

The only communication I sometimes have come from battery operated sensors and from Inovelli switches. These Inovelli switches serve a purpose (in one case where I do not have a neutral in the switch box, and in another 3-way situation where an auxiliary switch does not fit in the concrete wall) and therefore I keep these. But normally I stick to Homeseer and GE/Jasco switches.

[Techman]

ZSchroff,

Your Zwave network is constrained by the 300 series dongle and the older version of the ISY firmware.  Being that the 300 series dongle is no longer supported by UDI you should upgrade to the 500 series dongle and the latest ISY firmware.

Being that Zwave uses an RF protocol a range extender located as high up as possible will give you the best coverage / range. All non battery powered Zwave devices act as repeaters, however an outlet placed near the floor and enclosed in a wall will not perform as well as a repeater or other Zwave module located higher up and away from obstructions.

 

 

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

6 hours ago, ZSchroff said:

If this would help, it seems it already would have.  But the plug-in devices are not primarily repeaters -- they spend some of their volume on the outlet, the switching hardware, and on pretty stuff like the colourful light ring, rather than on antennae and signal boosting.  So it still seems to me that a dedicated repeater should provide a better coverage improvement than something that has to do something else as well, and if I'm not going to put an appliance or lamp or similar there, perhaps a better use of the outlet.

I'm will Asbril in regards to dual use. I actually use receptacles because it is too easy for someone to unplug a plug in device in ignorance (even worse, leave unplugged). Even if its not used today, it may be used tomorrow for something. Its more about future proofing while building a solid foundation vs. minimizing what Im using. A repeating device repeats the signal regardless of what its used for and doing. Given enough devices in an install, it doesnt matter whether the signal gets amplified by the device or not. It may cut down on the number of devices needed (or used) to go from A to Z. Even then, with the way zwave works, you're better off having more devices to create multiple pathways (in case of failure or interference). Dedicated repeaters that boost the signal may allow for greater range (havent seen where its helped greatly in actual installs), but ultimately it hurts more than it helps. Ultimately, the best way to have a strong system Is to build a strong mesh.

I have two Aeotec Range Extender 6 units (one recently moved to right next to the ISY -- less than 6 inches away,  per Techman's suggestion) and 4 Aeotec Smart Switch 6 units.  I also have three Aeotec Multisensor 6 units, all USB powered, but I expect they're probably not repeaters even this way..  The whole arrangement of the units would fit inside a 15m sphere, with the ISY toward the top of the sphere but not at its boundary.

Moving the repeater from a location on the floor below (there's still a another repeater within 12 feet linear physical from its new location) has had no apparent effect on things.

The fact that you already have repeaters and are still having problems goes to my earlier point. I wouldnt put a repeater within 6inches of the ISY. The system does not work that way. Even with wifi, they tell you not to be too close to your wireless router for best results. You need to be far enough away from the isy where the Zwave network feels its needed to go through. Look at your network. Most likely the device 6 inches from the isy is not even being used to repeat. 

The ISY is (now) less than 6 inches clear line of sight from the first Range Extender 6, then through a floor and wall (both at an angle) to less than 12 feet physical (but about 45 feet by WiFi alliance rules about walls and floors) to another Range Extender 6, then about 12 feet physical (but another 35 feet by WiFi alliance rules about walls and floors)  to the second most flaky device on the network, a USB powered Aeotec Multisensor 6, which is 3 feet clear line of sight from an Aeotec Smart Switch 6, which is 3 feet clear line of sight from the most flaky device on the network, another Aeotec Multisensor 6.  The physical straight line distance between the ISY and the flakiest of the Aeotec Multisensor 6 units is about 25 feet, and assuming the first Multisensor 6 doesn't count as a hop because it isn't repeating, it's four hops.  Before moving the repeater to next to the ISY, it was somewhere else, but I didn't have any units beyond it, so I chose it for experimenting.

The layout is suboptimal, I'll admit, but what's beginning to bug me about placement requirements for these things is that I'm getting the impression from reading this forum that placement is insanely restrictive...  20 feet clear line of sight, a wall counts as 10 feet if the signal passes through perpendicularly, &c.  That 'effective wall thickness' looks like something I have seen from the WiFi alliance, which I think also mentions floors are effectively 15 feet thick (denser material) on normal, and increases with the tangent of the signal angle off normal.  So it's just not possible to transmit ZWave between floors without explicitly ducting the signals, unless I have an outlet within 2 feet of the floor above, and within 2 feet of the ceiling below?  With a maximum hop count of 4, that means that I probably couldn't cover all of a 2 floor 1000 square foot condominium with ZWave.  Maybe ZWave *should* have a wired option where I can use coax to run from one repeater in the middle to spoke repeaters out near the edges...?

As I mentioned earlier, it takes devices. Unfortunately anyone trying to do zwave with the bare minimal amount of devices will always fight the moving around battle and still find they have issues......only to end up investing in more devices anyway. 

I have two of the Aeotec Range Extender 7 units on order, just to test, but I read conflicting indications on the forum here as well.  To take advantage of anything at all to do with the new generation, everything must be new generation, else everything will run at the lowest generation of all the devices.  Does that apply even to repeater effective range?  I hope not.  I may try upgrading to the 500 series based controller in my ISY, but if the repeater range is limited by generation as well, it means I won't be able to reach the ends of my house from dead centre, on just one floor, let alone cover the other floor, crawlspace, or attic, if I have to stay within 20 feet clear line of sight equivalent and have to stay within four hops of the ISY.

Zwave will default to the lowest firmware within the signal. An all 500 series install will have full capabilities. A mixed install will have some but not all. You could take advantage of the boosted signal with the extenders but in the end only time will tell. You wont know until they are installed.