30% Off Insteon

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

One place where Lutron really falls down is in supporting color bulbs. There is no provision for color in the Clear-Connect protocol and the Caseta Pro hub doen't seem to have any tight integration with Hue or Lifx or any other color platform. I think Insteon/Nokia need to find a way to embrace color either by creating an Insteon protocol color bulb or putting firmawre in place for an Insteon keypad to control color products on other protocols.

I know Polisy can bridge this gap (as can other hubs and platforms) but it is almost in spite of Lutron or Smartlabs rather than in cooperation with them. Both companies need to acknowledge that color is a thing that needs some official support.

I also realize this is getting off topic from the 30% off Insteon sale.... time to get back to the Insteon Discontinued thread!

The thing about Lutron is they aren't really for the hobbyist market.

The caseta line is there as an after thought for those who want the Lutron name but not the price of Lutron itself. Sorta like Mercedes. Their focus is on high end luxury cars. They have the A class for those who want the name but do not have the funds for the premium lines. Regardless of how many they sell, they do not put much into making the A class as they do the E and S classes which is their primary focus. 

[upstatemike]

8 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Insteon isn't trying to be lutron. They want to be themselves. They are not looking to be in the market for those who want advanced integrated systems. They are catering to a specific part of the population who doesn't know about the Isy and are not looking for a system such as the Isy. They want to capture new users not chase old. 

Eventually they may open things to 3rd party systems, but right now while they are trying to start new, it's about them and building their brand.

I like the new switches. They do look and feel really good. They aren't nearly as luxurious as Control4/Savant level but at their price point, they look fantastic. Definitely would fit into the decor of a midrange home. I can't say they fit well in a true high end luxury home though. Not when you compare them to other true luxury brands. 

Curious what the criteria is for a luxury brand? I know I don't like the look and feel of Lutron RadioRA2 switches because they are spongy press anywhere switches (like the cheap original X10 stuff) instead of true rockers. Many expensive switches tout a "minimalist" design which is just code for "we took the cheapest most basic possible switch and added a huge markup without bothering to include any advanced features". While common mid-range brands like Zooz, Inovelli, and Homeseer try to push the cutting edge with color changing LEDs, solid tactile feedback, and compatibility to control color bulb scenes, the high end brands seem to revel in their lack of features and plain Jane looks. Is it only their high cost and walled garden distribution model that makes them "high end" or is there some other tangible quality that I am missing about them?

[apostolakisl]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

 

Nokia isn't just a smartphone maker. They make network equipment for telecoms, patent licensing and other iot stuff. With that said, this is not a Nokia product line. Smartlabs/insteon is only licensing the name from them. They have nothing to do with the actual product itself except for their technical expertise with some stuff

Well I don't really get it.  If this is just Smartlabs paying Nokia money to put a Nokia sticker on it, I don't see the point.  Maybe that is the extra $5?  If Nokia isn't integrating into their product line up and cross-promoting it, I just don't see how this helps.  Nokia is an obscure company to the typical consumer.  Network equipment, patent licensing, and other random stuff is not visible except to a very special group of people.  And these light switches need to appeal to all sorts of people with lots of random backgrounds.

[LFMc]

Big thank you to all those who did not order anything from Smartlabs on this sale.  That means my order should go though just fine while the rest of you argue about how many angels can sit on the head of an Ninsteon switch that doesn't exist.  It is entertaining, especially those that post about "Nokia's" new product who obviously are not reading the fine print that Nokia is and will not sell, manufacture or distribute anything other than licensing their name to Smartlabs.  

As so well stated by The Who in "Won't Get Fooled Again": 

"Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss" 

????    If you sensed a heavy dose of skepticism and sarcasm in this post, you are probably correct. (-;

[silverton38]

23 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

One place where Lutron really falls down is in supporting color bulbs. There is no provision for color in the Clear-Connect protocol and the Caseta Pro hub doen't seem to have any tight integration with Hue or Lifx or any other color platform. I think Insteon/Nokia need to find a way to embrace color either by creating an Insteon protocol color bulb or putting firmawre in place for an Insteon keypad to control color products on other protocols.

I know Polisy can bridge this gap (as can other hubs and platforms) but it is almost in spite of Lutron or Smartlabs rather than in cooperation with them. Both companies need to acknowledge that color is a thing that needs some official support.

I also realize this is getting off topic from the 30% off Insteon sale.... time to get back to the Insteon Discontinued thread!

This has not been a concern for most of my customers. You can always buy a couple of Tuya bulbs to play with.

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Well I don't really get it.  If this is just Smartlabs paying Nokia money to put a Nokia sticker on it, I don't see the point.  Maybe that is the extra $5?  If Nokia isn't integrating into their product line up and cross-promoting it, I just don't see how this helps.  Nokia is an obscure company to the typical consumer.  Network equipment, patent licensing, and other random stuff is not visible except to a very special group of people.  And these light switches need to appeal to all sorts of people with lots of random backgrounds.

Nokia still has a recognizable name and that is what this is about. The age group that would buy it still knows the name

It's low risk high reward for them. 

[upstatemike]

12 minutes ago, silverton38 said:

This has not been a concern for most of my customers. You can always buy a couple of Tuya bulbs to play with.

As you state your customers are older so the demand for new features will lag a little bit but color will be mainstream before long (including color temperature only applications) so don't you want a platform that can accomodate it when they start asking?

[apostolakisl]

7 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Nokia still has a recognizable name and that is what this is about. The age group that would buy it still knows the name

It's low risk high reward for them. 

I guess it comes down to how much they paid for it. 

[lilyoyo1]

16 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

As you state your customers are older so the demand for new features will lag a little bit but color will be mainstream before long (including color temperature only applications) so don't you want a platform that can accomodate it when they start asking?

Not necessarily...the way the market is now, there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Color has a place but for most, once the novelty wears off, they don't get used much outside of presets. It's easy enough to tell Alexa to turn the lights on blue but after a while how many people actually do that? Most mid to high end homes will use them as accent lights and decorate with them such as what @MrBilldoes with his and I do with underbed lights and plants. But for general lighting, high end homeowners will avoid it overall.

Hobbyists on the other hand will continue to tinker and play around with colors and constantly make changes which isn't either of their market. 

[MrBill]

29 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

I guess it comes down to how much they paid for it. 

Nokia didn't pay for it, Nokia is getting a liscening fee for use of their name.

I've said this all in another thread, but since this has started up again...

Follow the money and the people....

Smartlabs, aka Insteon/Smarthome sold a couple years ago to Richmond Capital Partners.  Richmond Capital has plenty of cash to keep smartlabs floating... BUT now smartlabs is owned by a capital company they must show a profit for their investors....  As a result you see the slow moving and non-money making products have been dropped from the product line, products that turn quickly are still there.  Smarthome also reduced the "gadgets" it sells from other companies.

Richmond Capital installed a new CEO, Rob Lilleness to effect the changes required. i.e. make the company make money for the investors of Richmond Capital Partners. 

Now head over to Linkedin and look up Rob Lilleness....   Note that he started at Smartlabs in 2017....  Note that he left Nokia in 2017......

ding! ding! ding! we have the connection.   What's unclear is if Richmond Capital Partners also has money in Nokia, or the other way Nokia owns stock in Richmond Capital Partners.   Either way Nokia isn't paying Smartlabs, Smartlabs is paying Nokia to use the name.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by MrBill

[MrBill]

@upstatemike I agree with @lilyoyo1 colored lighting has limited usage.  I did all the LED strip lighting in my kitchen, both under-cabinet and accent in RCB+CCT... we don't actually use anything except the warm white setting, at 3 different dim levels.  The colors never get used.

I also hue colored lights outside the front door, for the holidays but they only get used a few times per year... Halloween, Christmas, St Paddy's day, and when the Chiefs won the Superbowl.

I also have some display art linked in a hue thread that @lilyoyo1 was mentioning that uses Hue color changing lights.

All that said everyday use of colored light is actually fairly limited in a residence.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

So, does this mean you have actually had samples to play with?  I guess the paddle switches are not push and hold dimmers and do not have ramp rates?  So only the dial units are dimmers?  I don't like that idea.  Are they at least a push click for on/off?  I don't think anyone would want to spin the dial to turn the light on/off.

It sounds like they use the same Insteon protocol.  The issue with ISY is just that they haven't published all the details?  Reverse engineering I think is possible with the Insteon protocol so I assume UD could do it if they wanted to put the time in.

As far as the look.  Insteon looks like your standard decora switch.  While the Nokia has a more refined look, there aren't any "dumb switches" that have that look.  So you would have to either do 100% Nokia switches or, ironically, mix and match which will look quite the opposite of refined.

Every time I see that cheap looking dimmer I wonder what the knob-and-tube wiring connections look like.

Looks like dimming commands will be a thing of the past. Again, it appears that SmartLabs is trying to hang ISY out to dry and wants them off the playing field.

[larryllix]

18 minutes ago, MrBill said:

@upstatemike I agree with @lilyoyo1 colored lighting has limited usage.  I did all the LED strip lighting in my kitchen, both under-cabinet and accent in RCB+CCT... we don't actually use anything except the warm white setting, at 3 different dim levels.  The colors never get used.

I also hue colored lights outside the front door, for the holidays but they only get used a few times per year... Halloween, Christmas, St Paddy's day, and when the Chiefs won the Superbowl.

I also have some display art linked in a hue thread that @lilyoyo1 was mentioning that uses Hue color changing lights.

All that said everyday use of colored light is actually fairly limited in a residence.

Coloured lighting is one of the mainstream "millennial"  attractions to IoTs today. There goes the theory that SmartLabs is catering to the bulk of the crowd.

While I don't use my colours as often as I did at one time my outside lights always demonstrate one of the current 16-18 festive occasions. I have given up hanging strings of LED Christmas lights that I have spent over $500 on, hundred of hours finding bad connections, bad LED bulbs and resistors or fuses, cutting bad sections out of strings to make one good one, so far and would never stop draining my lighting wallet. Now I just let my ISY control them with lighting patterns. I have even defined a rotating algorithm that rotates the colours every 1/2 second...all under ISY control. MY cabinet lights dim and add a sunset hue to them as the night gets late while watching TV. I use about 35 RGBWW/CW bulbs and strips now and more will come yet.

Bigger routers please!!!

Edited August 27, 2021 by larryllix

[apostolakisl]

2 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Coloured lighting is one of the mainstream "millennial"  attractions to IoTs today. There goes the theory that SmartLabs is catering to the bulk of the crowd.

While I don't use my colours as often as I did at one time my outside lights always demonstrate one of the current 16-18 festive occasions. I have given up hanging strings of LED Christmas lights that I have spent over $500 on so far and would never stop draining my lighting wallet. Now I just let my ISY control them with lighting patterns. I have even defined a rotating algorithm that rotates the colours every 1/2 second...all under ISY control. MY cabinet lights dim and add a sunset hue to them as the night gets late while watching TV. I use about 35 RGBWW/CW bulbs and strips now and more will come yet.

Bigger routers please!!!

I'm with the colored led's being silly.  I know people who put them in when they first came out.  It was a cute little party trick . .. hey look, I can make my living room green.  Then, they promptly put the light back to warm white for the rest of the evening.

If I saw any use for the, it would be perhaps to shift the light between daylight, warm white, and in between.  

Edited August 27, 2021 by apostolakisl

[larryllix]

20 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I'm with the colored led's being silly.  I know people who put them in when they first came out.  It was a cute little party trick . .. hey look, I can make my living room green.  Then, they promptly put the light back to warm white for the rest of the evening.

But cannabis is legal in Canada.

Edited August 28, 2021 by larryllix

[apostolakisl]

Just now, larryllix said:

But cannabis is legal in Canada.

Don't they still make lava lamps for that?

[larryllix]

Just now, apostolakisl said:

Don't they still make lava lamps for that?

Hey! Lava lamps  would fit right in with SmartLabs new small dial mechanical dimmer from the 1960s.

[upstatemike]

35 minutes ago, MrBill said:

@upstatemike I agree with @lilyoyo1 colored lighting has limited usage.  I did all the LED strip lighting in my kitchen, both under-cabinet and accent in RCB+CCT... we don't actually use anything except the warm white setting, at 3 different dim levels.  The colors never get used.

I also hue colored lights outside the front door, for the holidays but they only get used a few times per year... Halloween, Christmas, St Paddy's day, and when the Chiefs won the Superbowl.

I also have some display art linked in a hue thread that @lilyoyo1 was mentioning that uses Hue color changing lights.

All that said everyday use of colored light is actually fairly limited in a residence.

I guess I am in the minority. I use colors outdoors for many Holidays. I usually watch movies using blue light rather than just dimmed white (less glare). My motion sensors will trigger white lights during the day but usually a dimmed blue or pink at night to preserve night vision. The dining room can be set to different colors depending on the activity (eating to warm white, sitting around talking in front of the fire in a salmon glow to match the wall color, guests using the table as a makeshift office with cool white light, Blue night light, additional support for the current Holidy color because the Dinig Room is very visible from outside, etc.)

I think if all I needed was dimming and timers or motion sensors I wouldn't even bother with smart products but would instead use stand alone products to accomplish that.

[larryllix]

7 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I guess I am in the minority. I use colors outdoors for many Holidays. I usually watch movies using blue light rather than just dimmed white (less glare). My motion sensors will trigger white lights during the day but usually a dimmed blue or pink at night to preserve night vision. The dining room can be set to different colors depending on the activity (eating to warm white, sitting around talking in front of the fire in a salmon glow to match the wall color, guests using the table as a makeshift office with cool white light, Blue night light, additional support for the current Holidy color because the Dinig Room is very visible from outside, etc.)

I think if all I needed was dimming and timers or motion sensors I wouldn't even bother with smart products but would instead use stand alone products to accomplish that.

Exactly! Owning a mobile phone that has all those silly gadget apps on it  is just a massive waste of money when you can just fire up a desktop. We never needed those silly gadget years back. Even a corded phone can do the job of calling somebody.

Edited August 27, 2021 by larryllix

[silverton38]

10 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I guess I am in the minority. I use colors outdoors for many Holidays. I usually watch movies using blue light rather than just dimmed white (less glare). My motion sensors will trigger white lights during the day but usually a dimmed blue or pink at night to preserve night vision. The dining room can be set to different colors depending on the activity (eating to warm white, sitting around talking in front of the fire in a salmon glow to match the wall color, guests using the table as a makeshift office with cool white light, Blue night light, additional support for the current Holidy color because the Dinig Room is very visible from outside, etc.)

I think if all I needed was dimming and timers or motion sensors I wouldn't even bother with smart products but would instead use stand alone products to accomplish that.

Keep in mind that most high end home owners want a headache free environment. They think they are smart when they press one button and all the lights turn off

Edited August 27, 2021 by silverton38

[lilyoyo1]

14 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Coloured lighting is one of the mainstream "millennial"  attractions to IoTs today. There goes the theory that SmartLabs is catering to the bulk of the crowd.

 

When it comes down to colored lighting, the questions isn't whether people are buying it but rather, how are they using it.

In regards to the how, it's not necessary for insteon to compete by making their own bulbs when they simply need to work with the market. What's growing is connecting your products to Google and Alexa. If they don't do that then they fail (which they do). People don't care about the underlying product. They care whether it works with Alexa

[lilyoyo1]

14 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I guess I am in the minority. I use colors outdoors for many Holidays. I usually watch movies using blue light rather than just dimmed white (less glare). My motion sensors will trigger white lights during the day but usually a dimmed blue or pink at night to preserve night vision. The dining room can be set to different colors depending on the activity (eating to warm white, sitting around talking in front of the fire in a salmon glow to match the wall color, guests using the table as a makeshift office with cool white light, Blue night light, additional support for the current Holidy color because the Dinig Room is very visible from outside, etc.)

I think if all I needed was dimming and timers or motion sensors I wouldn't even bother with smart products but would instead use stand alone products to accomplish that.

You are also not the typical person. Most techies and hobbyists will do much more than the avg person.

Think about those you surround yourself with. How many say your house is cool but they don't need all that? For those who want it, how many of them do you think are really willing to put in as much time as you did to make it happen (outside of extremely like minded people? It's not always about the money but the time it takes to achieve what you have done. Most do not want to invest that 

[larryllix]

16 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

When it comes down to colored lighting, the questions isn't whether people are buying it but rather, how are they using it.

In regards to the how, it's not necessary for insteon to compete by making their own bulbs when they simply need to work with the market. What's growing is connecting your products to Google and Alexa. If they don't do that then they fail (which they do). People don't care about the underlying product. They care whether it works with Alexa

Nonsense! If Insteon wants to become a mainstream product vendor/manufacturer then that is what they should do. Why would they care if people light up their toilets with blue lights?  Market sales is market sales. Style of usage is just and excuse to hide real  agendas. There is a reason  SmartLabs spent lot of development time on a Ethernet to Insteon bridge hub.

If Insteon cared how people were applying their products they would manufacture some and improve them. Insteon has proven time and time again, they do not care to service the specialties or the mainstream markets with their products.  Unfortunately, or maybe luckily,  in five years they will not exist and somebody else can run with the protocol or an improved spin-off.

SmartLabs has killed the serial PLM and forced UDI to support other forms of PLMs and other protocols, because they didn't want to spend another $0.50 on components to make it reliable. That would be admitting fault with their past products. They may even be avoiding a class action suit, as far as anybody knows.

We will see in five years, and many of us can tell the others "I told you so!"

Edited August 27, 2021 by larryllix

[larryllix]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You are also not the typical person. Most techies and hobbyists will do much more than the avg person.

Think about those you surround yourself with. How many say your house is cool but they don't need all that? For those who want it, how many of them do you think are really willing to put in as much time as you did to make it happen (outside of extremely like minded people? It's not always about the money but the time it takes to achieve what you have done. Most do not want to invest that 

I know a almost a dozen that took that attitude but within another year most had installed some cheap iR or voice controlled coloured lighting. Once you spend time with it, most people want it.

Hmmmm...whatever happened to to B&W TV? Colour TV is just a toy anyway. Who needs it? 

I hope this is readable on an orange monochrome monitor.

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, larryllix said:

Nonsense! If Insteon wants to become a mainstream product vendor/manufacturer then that is what they should do. Why would they care if people light up their toilets with blue lights?  Market sales is market sales. Style of usage is just and excuse to hide real  agendas.

If Insteon cared how people were applying their products they would manufacture some and improve them. Insteon has proven time and time again, they do not care to service the specialties or the mainstream markets with their products.  Unfortunately, or maybe luckily,  in five years they will not exist and somebody else can run with the protocol or an improved spin-off.

SmartLabs has killed the serial PLM and forced UDI to support other forms of PLMs and other protocols, because they didn't want to spend another $0.50 on components to make it reliable. That would be admitting fault with their past products. They may even be avoiding a class action suit, as far as anybody knows.

We will see in five years, and many of us can tell the others "I told you so!"

You've been saying what insteon NEEDS to be doing for 10 years in order to survive and yet here they are. Maybe in 5 years they will be gone. If not what are you going to say then? 5 more years!!!??? At some point you may be right but until then stop with the broken record. 

Not many people care to support specialty markets. There are plenty of companies doing just fine not doing so. Hell, as many zwave device mfg. are out there, how many have color changing bulbs and other specialty products? The fact is, having core products that sell well is what matters. Making stuff to sit on a shelf for a year and stuff have to keep up with it is foolishness. 

Say what you want, they're still in business making much more money than we all have