Insteon ON/OFF Keypads Not working properly

[Michaelv]

I have over 150 Insteon devices in my network and most the devices go back to 2008 so I get a fair amount of failing switches. I keep extra switches on hand so if one goes down, I can replace it right away. Recently, I had to replace a 5 Button On off switch, Model 2487s with a new switch of the same model I bought in 2018.  I linked it to the ISY but when I tested the buttons, none of them responded.  How I tested the device was to open the Admin Console, select the button on the switch in the device tree, push the buttons on the switch and look to see if the status on the Admin console changed.

It did not. So I tried every button and got the same thing. So, I removed the device from the system. did a factory reset, re-linked it and the same thing happened. No response when I tested as above.

So, I thought. I have a bad switch. So I grabbed another brand new switch (Rev. 7.2, same as the other) linked it and tested it. The main button responded as did the A, B and C button. But the D button did not. I tried a device restore. that did not help. so I factory reset it, relinked it and now the  C and D button do not work. 

 

I can't return the switches as the warranty is up even though they were never used until now. I just had them for back up.

 

Any Ideas?

 

MV

 

 

[MrBill]

If I were you... I'd make a test cord. You also need a wire nut to cap the red wire.  Then plug the device into the same circuit as the PLM. (A cheap plug strip with NO Surge Protection is my method.)   I suspect you don't have as many bad devices, instead you have communication problems.

There is an entire sub-forum for Insteon Communication issues as well as several  Wiki Sections.

(Pic shamelessly stolen from a @Teken post elsewhere on this forum).

[lilyoyo1]

I agree with @MrBill. I highly doubt the switches are bad. Going off what you've said, i suspect noise issues

[Michaelv]

Yes, I have been down the noise issue rabbit hole. I was a heavy X-10 user before switching over to Insteon.  I have had electricians come to the house to double check the grounds and add grounds. I have over a dozen filter Lincs installed, a dozen access points installed, I have removed every CFL and Fluorescent bulb in the house. I have phase couplers installed. I have a power line noise signal meter. I have gone around unplugging noise suspects while watching the meter and putting filters on them then retesting the device. Been there done that. Come to find out that the biggest culprit was coming in from the outside my House as my town had an antiquated power substation with poor and failing equipment. They built a new one a few years ago and my system has become way more reliable.

 I made up a version of the extension cord thing pictured above. I use that to get my switches into the network before installing them in the wall. My System is 95-99% reliable so I think I have put noise issues behind me. I will try plugging the suspect switch into the same circuit as the PLM and I'll let you know. 

 

Thanks

 

[MrBill]

52 minutes ago, Michaelv said:

a dozen access points installed,

These like PLM's apparently have capacitors that fail, make sure they all still work.

Also if you have AP's you obviously have older Insteon and everything might not be dual band.  the newer dual band products are better and more reliable, and don't require access points.

[Brian H]

Hardware Revision 2. Are built on the same base 2413 PLM main board. Also subject to the same capacitor issues as we see in the 2413S PLM. I had to rebuild a set of then myself.

[Michaelv]

Is there a post detailing how to check the capacitors?

[hart2hart]

Is there a post detailing how to check the capacitors?

Was just posted on another thread. Best I’ve seen and common wisdom is replace all of them.

https://www.rototron.info/insteon-plm-repair-tutorial/

[lilyoyo1]

Communication issues with 1 device but not 149 others, I doubt your PLM or access points is the problem. With 150 devices, if the PLM or access points were the issue, you'd have much more problems than you do right now.

Edited September 5, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Michaelv]

I am not that skilled in changing components on a PC board. I have a back up PLM I could try if I cant get the switch to work by plugging it into the same circuit as the PLM. Yes, I have a lot of Vintage Insteon switches that are not dual band but they still exist in the system and as switches fail, I replace them with dual band switches. I guess I will always be playing catch up.

 

 

[oberkc]

While I do not suspect this to be the problem, it is easy enough to check….

what happens if you try to include one of the buttons into a scene with anothe insteon device, as a controller?  Does the scene work?

[hart2hart]

I am not that skilled in changing components on a PC board. I have a back up PLM I could try if I cant get the switch to work by plugging it into the same circuit as the PLM. Yes, I have a lot of Vintage Insteon switches that are not dual band but they still exist in the system and as switches fail, I replace them with dual band switches. I guess I will always be playing catch up.
 
 

My Insteon network is very similar to yours in size and device composition. Many of my switches go back to about 2009 and like you I have bought a stock of dual band devices to replace them as they fail. I have about 7 access points and 5 of them were the model two versions that someone mentioned. I noticed reliability of some devices failing. Did a bit of checking and found that 4 of 5 access points had failed. I repaired them using new capacitors and reliability was restored. Model 2 have a green LED and it will be dim or off if it’s dead. Too late to say long story short but I only posted the repair link in regards to the access points MrBill mentioned failing.

With 150 devices and I’m sure many scenes you may be bumping up against the PLM link limit. If you’re on version 5 and use polyglot, I’d install the inventory nodeserver to see if you’re getting close to limit.

Additionally, you might restore PLM with existing PLM still in place which I believe reclaims entries. It only updates PLM with fresh list stored in ISY and does not need to update other devices. Something I read once made me think it’s a sparse list data structure in PLM vs dense list.

[Michaelv]

Thanks for that info. Is there  a way to see if I have used up the link capacity in the PLM? I thought you had to have a Polisy to use Polyglot  I am looking into Purchasing UDI’s Polisy. I have a few questions into presales, but  would a newer version of the PLM handle more links? Any other way to increase capacity?

[Michaelv]

2 hours ago, oberkc said:

what happens if you try to include one of the buttons into a scene with anothe insteon device, as a controller?  Does the scene work?

Yes, I tried that. I made one of the buttons a controller to a scene and it did not work. 
 I then put one of the working button into the same scene and it did work. That’s why I first suspected the switch itself was bad. But when two new ones right out of the box did not work, I started this post.

[hart2hart]

Thanks for that info. Is there  a way to see if I have used up the link capacity in the PLM? I thought you had to have a Polisy to use Polyglot  I am looking into Purchasing UDI’s Polisy. I have a few questions into presales, but  would a newer version of the PLM handle more links? Any other way to increase capacity?

I kinda remember some older PLMs may have only had 500 links but very vague memory. The ones I recall all had 1000 links. Regardless, no new serial PLMs exist right now.

You can check current link count with Admin console on ISY.

Tools
Diagnostics
Show PLM link table.


The issue is if you have any Insteon traffic it will reset pointer and screw up the count. If you can make sure nothing sends an Insteon signal inclining motion sensors, it’ll be accurate. Run command a few times to see if you get same count more than once.

I actually took my ISY, PLM and a laptop to a neighbors with wired Ethernet once to get an accurate count.

[hart2hart]

Is your PLM a model 2412S or 2413S? 2412 had less than 500 links. Although I’d say it’s a record if you have still have a working 2412.

[Brian H]

The early revision 2412S PLM was 417. That later was expanded to 2014. I have seen some reports here that the 2014 links models had around a 800 links size before things started to be missed. In the ISY994i setup.

The 2413S is 1000 and has a faster memory chip in it over the 2412S's.

The PRO ISY models have a higher limit to how many devices and links allowed.

The early power line only modules. That used the original I1 protocol. Used Peeks and Pokes for messaging and took a real long time to do anything. The later I2 and I2CS is much more efficient.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Brian H
Add information

[Michaelv]

It’s a 2413S and a ISY994i/ir/Pro. 
 

so, it looks like I have the maximum link capacity.

I’ll look at the link table to get the count. 

[Michaelv]

So I ran the Links Table count twice and came up with 991 each time. 

Any Comments?

[MrBill]

That looks like a newer 2413s.  date codes are miserably hard to read because they have changed the format many times, but that one might be the 47th week of 2018... what does @Teken think of the datecode?

[apostolakisl]

Might consider doing a factory reset on the PLM and then restore it.  Reason being that orphan links are common.  You could have dozens of them.    I have done that to my PLM a couple times over the years.

[Michaelv]

Great, seems pretty straight forward. Do an ISY back up. Factory Reset PLM per  Insteon instructions. then, File>Restore Modem (PLM). 

Then I guess it would make sense to do another Link count to see if any of those orphan links got wiped out.

then, I will try adding those switches to see if all the buttons work. 

Thanks

 

 

[Michaelv]

Ok, So Performed the above and ran the ISY links table 5 times. Here are the results:

Before doing the PLM reset, I got 991.

After PLM Reset:

1st  -  501

2nd  -  289

3rd  -  533

4th  -  1166

5th  -   992

What's up with that?

[apostolakisl]

Any Insteon traffic while doing a PLM links check will mess it up.  You almost have to take the PLM to a location that has no Insteon devices.  At this point, your pre-check is almost certainly wrong, so any comparison now is impossible.

More importantly, are you able to link the devices that you were having issues with before?

[Michaelv]

Have not tried yet as I wanted to see how the count would come out after the reset and restore. So, to get an accurate count, take the ISY and PLM to a location with no Insteon devices, log into the ISY admin console, and run the links table count?