Insteon ON/OFF Keypads Not working properly

[hart2hart]

The listing feature does a get next link from the plm link n order to provide count. If an Insteon message arrives while it’s in progress, the plm will resume listing the records at where that located record is not the last place it was at in simple list feature.

If the record accessed comes before where the listing had progressed, you get an artificial high count. If it comes after where you had progressed, you’ll get a low count.


With lots of devices it is hard to get an accurate count, you have to make sure no one turns on a light or a motion sensor is tripped or a leak sensor sends a heartbeat signal.

You had a more recent plm than original install so you’ve had to do a plm replace which would get rid of orphan records. So given that one of the counts was close to the recreated baseline of 991, you probably didn’t have orphan records and you’re near the limit. That said, I’d try it again a few more times to see if you can get a consistent count.

If you’re at the limit, typically the only thing you can do is eliminate scene. Some report creating many scenes for different lighting moods. In those cases, you might be able to use alter scene in a program to get what you needs. It’s not as slick/fast as scenes but might get desired result but with a little lag as programs are not instantaneous.

Try adding the device and see what you get.

[apostolakisl]

2 hours ago, Michaelv said:

Have not tried yet as I wanted to see how the count would come out after the reset and restore. So, to get an accurate count, take the ISY and PLM to a location with no Insteon devices, log into the ISY admin console, and run the links table count?

That is the sure fire way to do it.  Or "hide" your plm.  You could plug it into a signal blocker,   Or use a UPS, unplug the UPS from the house and cover the PLM with a metal electrical box or some other metal enclosure to attenuate radio.  Usually a UPS will block power line communications even if plugged in, but you might as well unplug it just to be sure.  The radio attenuation is still going to be a question mark.  Trouble with trying to just have your house be "quiet" by not using any insteon devices can be sabotaged by things like a program running or a motion detector.  Possibly even a heartbeat from a battery device.

[Michaelv]

Ok, New issue. I tried to re install the 6-button on/off switch and it does not recognize the switch. I did a factory reset on the switch and tried again. Still wont recognize the switch after putting ISY in linking mode and pressing set button on switch. I tried rebooting the ISY and now  I get the message Error-Discovering Nodes; Retry!. Rebooted again. Same thing. 

 

It's like I'm stuck in a loop. 

 

Any Ideas?

 

MV

[MrBill]

6 minutes ago, Michaelv said:

1) Ok, New issue. I tried to re install the 6-button on/off switch and it does not recognize the switch. I did a factory reset on the switch and tried again. Still wont recognize the switch after putting ISY in linking mode and pressing set button on switch.

2)I tried rebooting the ISY and now  I get the message Error-Discovering Nodes; Retry!. Rebooted again. Same thing.

For problem number 1 (after you resolve problem#2) I would try the other linking method.  Use the Link Management menu at the top of the "Admin Console", select "New Insteon Device". Enter the devices Address, and name and click OK.  No need to put the device in linking mode. 

For problem number 2, I suggest you open a ticket: support@universal-devices.com

[DAlter01]

@Michaelv

I've experienced the EXACT issues you face and have a few more devices than your 150 number.  With my system I had exceeded the link capacity of my PLM.  As suggested by others, I resolved it by modifying how I used scenes to eliminate a lot of links.  Previously I had a day scene, an evening scene, an all on, a goodnight scene, a party scene, etc.  I found that I could use the day scene (occupancy scene) as my basic scene and manipulate that scene to create my other scenes.  So, for goodnight, I use a program to turn off my day scene, evening scene, and party scene to make sure I catch all the lights.  This eliminated my entire goodnight scene which contained nearly every device.  For evening scene, I turn on the day scene in a program and then have an abridged evening scene that just changes those few switches that I want different than my base day scene.  I use the same for my party scene where a program first turns on the day (occupancy) scene and then I use a small party scene to change those few switches that I want different than my day scene.  I applied this same strategy to some of my other scenes and have cut my link count by nearly 1/2.  Now, all of the issues I faced, which were identical to your issues, have been resolved. 

For an all on scene, you can use the same base day scene and use a Fast On command to turn the lights on at 100% versus your predefined level you have your lights set for in your day scene.  

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

@Michaelv

I've experienced the EXACT issues you face and have a few more devices than your 150 number.  With my system I had exceeded the link capacity of my PLM.  As suggested by others, I resolved it by modifying how I used scenes to eliminate a lot of links.  Previously I had a day scene, an evening scene, an all on, a goodnight scene, a party scene, etc.  I found that I could use the day scene (occupancy scene) as my basic scene and manipulate that scene to create my other scenes.  So, for goodnight, I use a program to turn off my day scene, evening scene, and party scene to make sure I catch all the lights.  This eliminated my entire goodnight scene which contained nearly every device.  For evening scene, I turn on the day scene in a program and then have an abridged evening scene that just changes those few switches that I want different than my base day scene.  I use the same for my party scene where a program first turns on the day (occupancy) scene and then I use a small party scene to change those few switches that I want different than my day scene.  I applied this same strategy to some of my other scenes and have cut my link count by nearly 1/2.  Now, all of the issues I faced, which were identical to your issues, have been resolved. 

For an all on scene, you can use the same base day scene and use a Fast On command to turn the lights on at 100% versus your predefined level you have your lights set for in your day scene.  

I do the same thing with some variations. For non critical items, I'll just make responder scenes and use programs to turn them off vs having them hard linked to the controller. For example, each room has an all off/goodnight button. Each device is in the scene as a responder and I use programs to turn them off based on the button press (or voice). My away button will also trigger the program which turns each room's scene off as well vs having a separate away scene. 

Keypads are your biggest enemy when it comes to device count as each button counts as one. I use programs with mine as well. Since I use a lot of presets, i don't want double taps to always turn stuff full blast so this is also where i will create a responder scene and trigger it with a program. The double tap causes the reverse. For example, early evening, the light are full blast. A double tap dims the lights. Late evening, they are dim. A double tap turns them full blast.

 

[DAlter01]

 

21 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Each device is in the scene as a responder and I use programs to turn them off based on the button press (or voice).

Good point, this topic is in a new user forum so the poster might be new and we should make clear that from a function perspective he can mimic his current operation by having buttons or dimmers trigger the scenes just like his current setup.  He would just be using the button or dimmer to start a program that controls the scene.  And, he doesn't need to do this for all his scenes but enough to get his link count to less than the PLM limit.  Based on his readings, he is definently over the limit with his one count showing 1166 links which might still be low if it was interupted with Insteon traffic.  When I was having similar problems and finally got a good repeated count I was at around 1,700 links.

Another fine tune is that for my base occupancy scene (day scene), I use a 2 second ramp rate and a 1/2 second ramp rate for my smaller scenes that manipulate the base occupancy scene.  This way, as the base occupancy scene is ramping up over 2 seconds, when then smaller scene changes the lighting level at a faster rate (for instance my smaller evening scene), the transition is seemless between the two.  You don't get a flash of the higher lighting level that might exist on the base occupancy scene with the lighting level then dropping down to a lower level.  

Edited September 10, 2021 by DAlter01

[DAlter01]

On 9/8/2021 at 4:01 AM, Michaelv said:

Ok, So Performed the above and ran the ISY links table 5 times. Here are the results:

Before doing the PLM reset, I got 991.

After PLM Reset:

1st  -  501

2nd  -  289

3rd  -  533

4th  -  1166

5th  -   992

What's up with that?

Your count was interupted by Insteon traffic.  You have a minimum of 1166 links which is way over the limit and is causing you problems.  The 1166 may still be under your actual count since the other four of your counts were clearly interupted there is a fair chance the 1166 count was also interupted.  You will not know your true count untill you get a repeatable number.  You have something in your system being triggered during your counts, a motion sensor, door sensor, something is stopping your counts.

[DAlter01]

2 hours ago, MrBill said:

For problem number 2, I suggest you open a ticket: support@universal-devices.com

Yep, Michel at UDI will immediatly get you resolved if you open a ticket, or at least that is my experience.

[MrBill]

22 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Yep, Michel at UDI will immediatly get you resolved if you open a ticket, or at least that is my experience.

UDI has amazing customer service thanks to Michel.

[Michaelv]

Ok, Had a little time to do a count. Plugged the PLM into a UPS and shielded it with a metal dome.

1st count - 1614

2nd Count - 1060

3rd count - 313

4th count - 3543

I will admit I did not unplug the UPS as the battery expires while the first few counts I tried were in progress. 

Something does not seem right. Is my only option taking the ISY and PLM to a separate structure that has no know Insteon traffic to get an accurate count? I did a PLM reset recently to try to get rid of the orphan links. But 3543 seems crazy high.

In any event, It looks like I have to decrease the amount of links I have. Is there a tutorial or do I just have to convert scenes to programs?

 

Thanks

[MrBill]

57 minutes ago, Michaelv said:

Ok, Had a little time to do a count. Plugged the PLM into a UPS and shielded it with a metal dome.

1st count - 1614

2nd Count - 1060

3rd count - 313

4th count - 3543

I will admit I did not unplug the UPS as the battery expires while the first few counts I tried were in progress. 

Something does not seem right. Is my only option taking the ISY and PLM to a separate structure that has no know Insteon traffic to get an accurate count? I did a PLM reset recently to try to get rid of the orphan links. But 3543 seems crazy high.

In any event, It looks like I have to decrease the amount of links I have. Is there a tutorial or do I just have to convert scenes to programs?

 

Thanks

The problem is ANY Insteon traffic during the count will invalidate the count.

Do you have battery powered device?  if so how many? and are they easy to disable?    If it's practical disable those by removing the battery.  Even a heartbeat signal will throw the count off.

You can prevent programs from running by creating an interger variable such as $cFalse or just $iTest and leaving the value at 0.  then click the My programs folder at the top of the program tree and enter a folder condition:

Since $cFalse (or $iTest) has a value of zero this statement will never be true and will STOP all programs that could interfere with the count.

If you have nodeservers, temporarily stop them as well.

Obviously you also can't turn a switch on or off during the count either.

 

[Brian H]

3543 is definitely wrong. The 2413S is around 1000 and the older 2412S was around 2000 but choked in the ISY interface if over 800.

How old is the PLM? That do real strange things when the power supply is starting to go bad.

[Michaelv]

I bought it 8/21/2019.

[MrBill]

16 hours ago, Michaelv said:

I bought it 8/21/2019.

The Version number and date code on the sticker on the device tell more than the purchase date.

[apostolakisl]

30 minutes ago, MrBill said:

The Version number and date code on the sticker on the device tell more than the purchase date.

Well, yes, but also the ones with bad caps consistently fail right at 2 years.  So, assuming you put it into service at the time you bought it, then this would be spot on for a cap failure.  Should the version number be prior to the new design, that together with 2 years in service would confirm with very high probability that you have a dying plm.  

@Michaelv

[Teken]

47 Week of 2018 production sure points to a failing 2413S PLM. Given it’s a revision 2.5 which Smartlabs indicated was fixed - Not!

Cap & Go . . .

[Michaelv]

So the Revision # on the back is 2.5  4718, and I'm hearing you cant buy a new one as Insteon had discontnued them.

 

Is this correct?

 

MV

 

 

[Teken]

20 minutes ago, Michaelv said:

So the Revision # on the back is 2.5  4718, and I'm hearing you cant buy a new one as Insteon had discontnued them.

 

Is this correct?

 

MV

 

 

The word is the hardware is on pause until chip supplies have been resolved. Your choices are to repair the same, buy either the USB Dongle or USB version of the PLM.

[MrBill]

9 minutes ago, Teken said:

Your choices are to repair the same, buy either the USB Dongle or USB version of the PLM.

@Michaelv But note the USB Dongle and USB version of the PLM are not directly compatible with the ISY.  Some have built an adapter to make it work, others have taken apart the USB and serial versions and swapped parts, or there are 5-7 capacitors that can be replaced returning life to the 2413S.

[Michaelv]

Ok, I guess I would just replace all the capacitors if they will all fail after about  two years. is there a kit somewhere or just order them from Amazon? 

[Teken]

17 minutes ago, Michaelv said:

Ok, I guess I would just replace all the capacitors if they will all fail after about  two years. is there a kit somewhere or just order them from Amazon? 

https://ebay.us/qlzkdK

[Brian H]

Depending on the hardware revision you are trying to rebuild. You may find a different size capacitor in the C7 and C13 positions. The kit has the latest 100uF/50V capacitors in it. In mine they are too large physically to fit into the locations on the main board. So they are parallel to the board and the two leads are bent 90 degrees into the solder pads.

If you choose to get the 7 capacitor kit. Check the revision sticker on the rear of the case. Hardware V2.4 and above. Has a new serial board and no C2 or C5. The older serial board has a C2 and 4 small capacitors  1uF/25V  that I have see anyone try and change.

As far as I can tell. C5 is only in the Smartenit EZIO relay module.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Brian H
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[MrBill]

14 hours ago, Teken said:

https://ebay.us/qlzkdK

This is a reliable ebay vendor and deal... I purchased it.  Ships from Canada but arrived in about 7 days.