ISY and PLM 220v/50Hz

[cauding]

Hi everybody,

I'm trying to wrap my head around this... I use Home Assistant for several automation in my home (in Europe) and I would like to add several switches over the power line. So I found out about the ISY994 and the Insteon PLM module, but I can't understand if the PLM module for 220v/50hz is available or if it's a good idea at all... I swear I spent a few hours looking for the answer but I can't find anything recent or trustworthy!

Can you please help me understand?

Thanks a lot

[larryllix]

18 minutes ago, cauding said:

Hi everybody,

I'm trying to wrap my head around this... I use Home Assistant for several automation in my home (in Europe) and I would like to add several switches over the power line. So I found out about the ISY994 and the Insteon PLM module, but I can't understand if the PLM module for 220v/50hz is available or if it's a good idea at all... I swear I spent a few hours looking for the answer but I can't find anything recent or trustworthy!

Can you please help me understand?

Thanks a lot

I don't know if there is a 50Hz PLM but all devices would have to be 50Hz models also. Insteon is completely dependent on the powerline frequency. Signals are timed from a previous waveform and waveform period  is critical.

[apostolakisl]

The PLM is 120vac 60hz . . . if you can get one.  They are not currently being produced.  The official reason is chip shortages.  Not sure what would happen if you used a voltage adapter

[apostolakisl]

2 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I don't know if there is a 50Hz PLM but all devices would have to be 50Hz models also. Insteon is completely dependent on the powerline frequency. Signals are timed from a previous waveform and waveform period  is critical.

Dual band would likely take care of that problem.  All the other insteon stuff is designated as 50 or 60hz, so once it gets picked up by the first device it would go on the power line and rf even if the plm didn't.

Just not positive if 120vac 50hz would be OK for the power supply in the PLM, assuming you used a 240 to 120 adapter.

[larryllix]

10 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Dual band would likely take care of that problem.  All the other insteon stuff is designated as 50 or 60hz, so once it gets picked up by the first device it would go on the power line and rf even if the plm didn't.

Just not positive if 120vac 50hz would be OK for the power supply in the PLM, assuming you used a 240 to 120 adapter.

Insteon RF is still based on 60Hz powerline frequency to synch the mesh simulcast....unfortunately. Divorcing the two would likely be a huge improvement in speeds but presents  a lot of logical problems to be worked out.

[apostolakisl]

25 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Insteon RF is still based on 60Hz powerline frequency to synch the mesh simulcast....unfortunately. Divorcing the two would likely be a huge improvement in speeds but presents  a lot of logical problems to be worked out.

Did not know that.  With all the newer Insteon stuff being 50 or 60hz, something has to give here.  Of note, I use Insteon on 3 phase building and that works just fine with various devices all out of sync with each other on zero crossing points.  I even have two separate 3 phase buildings linked together with a single rf device.  To simplify the description, imagine a 200 foot extension cord with a dual band device at the end.  I is is plugged into building A, stretches across the yard and ends next to building B, where another dual band device is located next to it and plugged into building B.  This works perfectly and keeps the two buildings electrical systems isolated.

[Brian H]

If the PLM PRO in the FCC Database ever see the light of day. Especially now that Nokia seems to be the big push. With NO information from Smartlabs. Who knows.

It has a universal power supply. 100VAC-240VAC 50/60Hz.  Faster and bigger Link Database. Serial and USB. I did see a reference to an Ethernet style also. On one of the Labels given to the FCC. Serial version can also supply DC, to power things like the ISY994i on the serial connector. Kind of like the old 2412S could.

For now if you find one. 120VAC 60Hz.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Brian H

[Techman]

The new PLMs in the FCC database have been sitting there for almost 2 years. See attached specs. I wonder if they will ever see the light of day.

 

2234-223.pdf 2234-222.pdf

Edited September 15, 2021 by Techman

[larryllix]

6 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

Did not know that.  With all the newer Insteon stuff being 50 or 60hz, something has to give here.  Of note, I use Insteon on 3 phase building and that works just fine with various devices all out of sync with each other on zero crossing points.  I even have two separate 3 phase buildings linked together with a single rf device.  To simplify the description, imagine a 200 foot extension cord with a dual band device at the end.  I is is plugged into building A, stretches across the yard and ends next to building B, where another dual band device is located next to it and plugged into building B.  This works perfectly and keeps the two buildings electrical systems isolated.

That does seem to negate what I posted about needing synch on the RF. I believe it was in one of their white papers, but as I have stated before, white papers are usually only conceptual, and many fine details (like actual frequencies etc.) were not what what actually used in Insteon devices.

Many tech companies do this to slow down hackers and protect their intellectual concepts. The other thing they do is release older software and then dump a later update on the market, as soon as some eastern country copies and releases it,  Now the copy  seems out of date, staying one step ahead.

I also read somewhere in one of them that a dual band device only transmits RF when it receives a powerline signal and vice versa. I didn't believe that one from the moment I read it but...who knows?

[apostolakisl]

@larryllix  I was thinking about it and without the rf, there is just no way for the devices on the different 3 phase to be in sync.  None of the 2 or 3 phase appliances (ie hot water heater) would be able to pass plc across since they won't share zero points.  It has to be the rf.  I suppose it could be that the rf transmission occurs on the zero cross, but receipt of the rf is independent of the AC zero point. I assume you could tune an rf receiver into the insteon frequency and plug that into an oscilloscope on one channel and on another channel watch the AC current for Insteon traffic.

Edited September 15, 2021 by apostolakisl

[Brian H]

Received Insteon RF signals. Get synchronize to the module receiving its Zero Crossing signal. Before being passed on or acted on.

The older power line only modules. Where not rated to be used on 3 phase power by Smarthome. They did say Dual Band ones did work on 3 phase systems.

[larryllix]

I guess the question in my mind then is: are the RF hops synchronised or not?

I would think they may be synchronised with the powerline hops (each zero crossing) but cannot be using a simulcast technique.  The RF frequency is too high to phase lock between devices, based on a 60Hz waveform zero crossing and would mostly be out of synch, confusing other signal senders. Powerline tech at 161 kHz? is obviously possible but different on 900MHz.

Obviously Insteon RF is not self-reinforcing signals,  as the powerline signals are but the RF may still be packet synced with powerline packets. Mesh packats need to not get ahead of each other.

[apostolakisl]

37 minutes ago, Brian H said:

Received Insteon RF signals. Get synchronize to the module receiving its Zero Crossing signal. Before being passed on or acted on.

The older power line only modules. Where not rated to be used on 3 phase power by Smarthome. They did say Dual Band ones did work on 3 phase systems.

That sounds like what my assumption was.  Transmit on zero cross, accept at any time. 

[larryllix]

25 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

That sounds like what my assumption was.  Transmit on zero cross, accept at any time. 

I wonder how the RF handles the mesh and hops. Just fire at random until you don't hear any interference, like Ethernet?

[cauding]

Thanks to everybody for the active discussion, which goes far beyond my technical understanding.

Since I'm not a pro, I think it's safer to look for an alternative. Can anyone suggest another PL solution with an open system I can use with Home Assistant?

[larryllix]

Zwave appears to be the most popular protocol being sold and used right now. If you ever decided to migrate the polisy/IST994 it would be quite easily done and lives with WiFi devices mostly also.

[MrBill]

6 hours ago, cauding said:

Thanks to everybody for the active discussion, which goes far beyond my technical understanding.

Since I'm not a pro, I think it's safer to look for an alternative. Can anyone suggest another PL solution with an open system I can use with Home Assistant?

Since Insteon switches will work for you (e.g. 100-277VAC, 50/60Hz) I'd suggest using the native Home Assistant Integration which can use a 2448A7 USB stick as the interface.

[apostolakisl]

Options as I see it.

1) Get your hands on an Insteon PLM, use a voltage converter and see if it works.  

2) Ditch Insteon and go with Z-wave along with ISY

3) Ditch ISY and stay with Insteon using some other non-plm interface.  The HUB is listed as working with 50hz, however it only lists125v

 

Personally, I suspect the PLM with a voltage adapter probably will work based on RF.

 

 

[larryllix]

46 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Options as I see it.

1) Get your hands on an Insteon PLM, use a voltage converter and see if it works.  

2) Ditch Insteon and go with Z-wave along with ISY

3) Ditch ISY and stay with Insteon using some other non-plm interface.  The HUB is listed as working with 50hz, however it only lists125v

 

Personally, I suspect the PLM with a voltage adapter probably will work based on RF.

 

 

The 125V rating may be the North American receptacle configuration for that model.

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

The 125V rating may be the North American receptacle configuration for that model.

You may be right.  It wouldn't make sense to list it as compatible with 50hz if it weren't compatible with 220/240v.  There only a handful of obscure countries in the world that use 120v/50hz.