mbski Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 OK I HAVE SEVERAL OUTLETLINCS AND OF COURSE SEVERAL OTHER INSTEON DEVICES, AND ONE PARTICULAR OUTLETLINC COMES ON FOR NO REASON. IVE CLEARED ALL ISY-99 SCHEDULES AND COMMANDS FOR THIS ONE OUTLET AND STILL NO RYME OR REASON IT COMES ON WHENEVER IT FEELS LIKE, NO PARTICULAR TIME. SOMEDAYS NEVER AND SOMEDAYS 4OR5 TIMES??? ANY INFO? THANX MIKE BELL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoe Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I just got home from a 6 hour training day with Smart Home. I learned many many new tricks and tips. One that blew me away was the realization that Smarthome products heal themselves by design. Even if you factory reset one device, any device that was previously linked to it will hold half links and will recreate them once your add the device back in after a factory reset. You may be experiencing this phenomenon. To solve the problem, you will have to factory reset the other devices that were linked to that device. As a Smarthome Pro dealer and installer, I will probably buy a copy of Houselink since it cruises your network and adds everything, showing all the links. Maybe there is a way to do the same with the ISY but I am not aware of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Hi tahoe, Thanks so very much. This is the first time I am hearing the healing power. I do not like it since it would surely interfere with an automation solution like ISY. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I believe this may be a "feature" of HouseLinc 2. I wouldn't recommend the use of HouseLinc 2 with an ISY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoe Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 It's not just a feature in Houselink. We were trained with a simple box of lights and switches wires together. The instructor demonstrated a live scenario where he factory reset one switch and left a lost link in another switch that had pointed to the reset switch. We programmed the keypad to a new dimmer and waited. Within 30 seconds the old linked switch found the companion back in the network and reestablished the old link. Since each switch can hold 4000 links, both were present. It points out that both devices need to be unlinked or both need to be factory reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Smarthomes sales pages for switches show 417 links in a switch. Maybe your instructor was incorrect or you where training on some unreleased future stuff. The PLMs show 2016 Links max and the newer Dual Band PLM is 1023 links. I don't see 4000 links specfied for any device yet. I have also never seen any Insteon switch heal itself. I have seen modules come from the Factory with test links and X10 addresses from testing and not cleared out before being sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwwer Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Hi Tahoe, What you're implying doesn't really make sense and nothing like this is in any of the Insteon developer documentation or was discussed on the Insteon developer forums. Did the training provide you with enough information to clarify some things? It's not just a feature in Houselink. We were trained with a simple box of lights and switches wires together. The instructor demonstrated a live scenario where he factory reset one switch and left a lost link in another switch that had pointed to the reset switch. I'm assuming you mean the two devices were cross-linked correct? That's 4 total link table entries, two on each device. So switch 1 was reset removing the two link entries and switch 2 was not, leaving the two link entries. We programmed the keypad to a new dimmer and waited. Within 30 seconds the old linked switch found the companion back in the network and reestablished the old link. What does the keypad have to do with this? What was programmed? Which switch is the "old linked switch" and which is the "companion"? It sounds like switch 1 (the one that was reset) was linked to another device (keypad?). After that it could then control switch 2. (This would be normal behavior from day 1 with Insteon). Since switch 2 still has a link that says it should turn on when it sees a broadcast from switch 1. Switches always send a broadcast when they have something in their link table. All devices see the broadcast but only devices that have the broadcastee in their table will respond. This isn't self healing, switch 1 doesn't search the network for other devices that have links to it and then add links to it's (switch 1's) link table. What you end up with is a "half" link in the network that mostly, sometimes works and be difficult to debug when it doesn't. Since each switch can hold 4000 links, both were present. Is this relevant information? I don't understand what you're trying to say here. It points out that both devices need to be unlinked or both need to be factory reset. Yes, this has always been true. Multi-button controllers can provide really good examples of this: Link button 1 of controller to light 1 link button 2 of controller to light 2 link button 3 of controller to light 3. Factory reset controller. At this point, no buttons on the controller will control anything. Link button 1 of the controller to anything. Now button1 will control light 1, button 2 will control light 2, and button 3 will control light 3. It's an artifact of the Insteon protocol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoe Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Original issue: OK I HAVE SEVERAL OUTLETLINCS AND OF COURSE SEVERAL OTHER INSTEON DEVICES, AND ONE PARTICULAR OUTLETLINC COMES ON FOR NO REASON. IVE CLEARED ALL ISY-99 SCHEDULES AND COMMANDS FOR THIS ONE OUTLET AND STILL NO RYME OR REASON IT COMES ON WHENEVER IT FEELS LIKE, NO PARTICULAR TIME. SOMEDAYS NEVER AND SOMEDAYS 4OR5 TIMES??? bpwwer said: "Since switch 2 still has a link that says it should turn on when it sees a broadcast from switch 1. Switches always send a broadcast when they have something in their link table. All devices see the broadcast but only devices that have the broadcastee in their table will respond." "This isn't self healing, switch 1 doesn't search the network for other devices that have links to it and then add links to it's (switch 1's) link table. What you end up with is a "half" link in the network that mostly, sometimes works and be difficult to debug when it doesn't." Huh??? It's exactly what I was trying to tell the user above. What I said above: "Even if you factory reset one device, any device that was previously linked to it will hold half links and will recreate them once your add the device back in after a factory reset." From my training notes: A Factory Reset doesn’t entirely clear the database of existing Links- always Un-Link! The instructor used the term healing, not me. I saw it with my own eyes and practiced it with switches. Again, I'm a new user and we didn't have Houselink or an ISY, just plain old switches in front of us. No PLM of any kind was plugged in. If I take a switch out, throw it in a box for 6 months and them stick it back in the house, the old half links will start working again, will they not? Jeez, I try to help and everyone calls me out on it. I have seen MANY here helping users with phantom events tell them to factory reset the device that's acting up. That is simply wrong advice in my eyes. Mike, I hope that you find the possible broken half links or whatever else is firing your switches. As an ISY fan, I never intended on buying a copy of Houselink but I will now because it sniffs the system and documents all the links and half links that exist. As an installer, this will save a lot of time troubleshooting phantom issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 The self healing thing threw me. If I came off wrong to you. It was not my intention to do so. As you do more installs. The information you gather will be a great help to others. Yes a factory reset on a module still leaves the links in the device it was linked to. The factory Reset module has no links in it at all. I did a Factory Reset on a RemoteLinc and all the buttons no longer controlled their linked devices, but the All On and Off buttons still controlled them as the RemoteLinc ID was still in their link database. The links in the individual buttons was cleared by the Factory Reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveL Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 My guess the self healing comment was meant to relate what happens when you factory default a device. After a factory default a switch or keypad will appear to be removed from all devices it was once linked to. The fact is that all you need to do is link any one of the buttons or the switch that has been reset to any device and all of the other devices that were linked to it will start responding again. Hope this makes sense. SteveL Smartlabs info@INSTEON.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Makes sense. A Factory Reset clears everything so a fresh start can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoe Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Maybe this well written explanation will clear this matter up and be helpful in the future. As I said before, there are a lot of posts on this forum related to phantom events. Since Tuesday, I now have a suspicion to why they occur. Response from my instructor: Here is the process I used during the training to demonstrate why it is important to Unlink items from one another rather than Factory Resetting: 1. First I linked the Dimmer Switch on the left of the demo box to the 3rd and 4th switches at the bottom of the box. 2. Next, I Factory Reset the first Dimmer Switch by Air Gapping it (e.g. pulling the set button out for 10 seconds) and holding the set button down for 10 seconds 3. Then, I demonstrated how the first Dimmer Switch no longer controlled the 3rd and 4th switches at the bottom of the box. 4. I then mentioned that the home owner wanted to link the first Dimmer Switch to the 2nd (Relay) Switch and I proceeded to create the link (by holding the set button on the first switch for 3 seconds, then holding the set button on the second switch for 3 seconds). 5. Finally, I demonstrated how when I turn the first Dimmer Switch on and off, it controls not only the 2nd (Relay) Switch, but also the 3rd and 4th Switches it was previously linked to (before the factory reset). I mentioned that both the transmitters and receivers store their links in their respective databases. When I created a new link from the first Dimmer Switch to another device, it’s database was restored causing it to reinitiate its communication with the 3rd and 4th switches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwwer Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Hi Tahoe, I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that what you were saying was wrong or incorrect. I was trying to dig a little deeper into the information you got during the training. The term "self healing" is new (I believe to everyone here) and implies that the devices themselves are doing something to correct problems. You even say. Even if you factory reset one device, any device that was previously linked to it will hold half links and will recreate them once your add the device back in after a factory reset. So again, this is implying that the devices do something to their link tables automatically to correct problems. I don't believe that is true. Nothing get's re-created, it's simply that the link entries in the other devices were never removed. I think we're saying the same thing, just a bit differently. Yes, "half" links (which are perfectly valid to have) can cause unexpected behavior unless you have a really good understanding of how Insteon works. Original issue:OK I HAVE SEVERAL OUTLETLINCS AND OF COURSE SEVERAL OTHER INSTEON DEVICES, AND ONE PARTICULAR OUTLETLINC COMES ON FOR NO REASON. IVE CLEARED ALL ISY-99 SCHEDULES AND COMMANDS FOR THIS ONE OUTLET AND STILL NO RYME OR REASON IT COMES ON WHENEVER IT FEELS LIKE, NO PARTICULAR TIME. SOMEDAYS NEVER AND SOMEDAYS 4OR5 TIMES??? bpwwer said: "Since switch 2 still has a link that says it should turn on when it sees a broadcast from switch 1. Switches always send a broadcast when they have something in their link table. All devices see the broadcast but only devices that have the broadcastee in their table will respond." "This isn't self healing, switch 1 doesn't search the network for other devices that have links to it and then add links to it's (switch 1's) link table. What you end up with is a "half" link in the network that mostly, sometimes works and be difficult to debug when it doesn't." Huh??? It's exactly what I was trying to tell the user above. What I said above: "Even if you factory reset one device, any device that was previously linked to it will hold half links and will recreate them once your add the device back in after a factory reset." From my training notes:A Factory Reset doesn’t entirely clear the database of existing Links- always Un-Link! Just to be clear, a factory reset will definitely clear the database of the device being reset. It won't clear the data on any other device. So if by database, they mean all the link tables on all the devices, the it's correct. (or maybe database means the HouseLinc or ISY database?) Of course, if you suspect that the link database on a device is corrupt, then factory resetting and restoring that one device is the right thing to do. If I take a switch out, throw it in a box for 6 months and them stick it back in the house, the old half links will start working again, will they not? Yes, all links between the switch and any other device will start working again. Jeez, I try to help and everyone calls me out on it. I have seen MANY here helping users with phantom events tell them to factory reset the device that's acting up. That is simply wrong advice in my eyes. Thank you for helping out. I'm not trying to call you out on it. That was not my intention at all. I was trying to understand if Smarthome has updated the firmware on devices with some new "self healing" capabilities without telling anyone. If anything, I'm calling out your instructor! It sounds like you gained a lot of good insight from the training and you've brought up some very good points. Half links tend to exist because of a failure somewhere, cause odd behavior and are difficult to track down because the device with the odd behavior may not be the only one with the half links. The ISY isn't designed as a diagnostic tool. It does have some options that can help track down problems. HouseLinc has some different options that can also help track down problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoe Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I think we have beat this to death. Again, I am trying to shed a little light on the phantom issue for other new users like me. Until I saw it happen, I would have never predicted the outcome. If you look at it from a new person's perspective, it may have more meaning. If I decide to move a device from one room to another to use it in a different way, my practice was to factory reset it and move it to the new location and link it to new devices. It is not intuitive (to everyone) that any other previously linked device carrying a broken half link would find the switch in the new location. It is plausible to me that unlinking would travel across the network and remove the other end of the link too. That would be handy in many situations. In some ways the ISY does that when you delete a device. It also deletes every instance of the device in all programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tome Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Don't want to hijack this conversation, I have to say this has been enlightening for me (a new guy) and explains an issue I had with one switch controlling another even though I thought I had removed the links. First, the ISY may not be a diagnostic tool specifically, but it has to help me as it is the only device I have besides the switches themselves. I would like to request an ISY feature that shows me the links that each device has. If you have no means to tell what links are in what device how are you expected to know what to unlink!!!! Second, when I do a Restore on a device (or all devices) from the ISY, I thought - please correct me if I am wrong - that all links are removed and only those in the ISY are written back. Is that not the case? And if it is the case, why not use this instead of a factory reset? Thirdly, Tahoe's instructor says to factory reset a SL Dimmer he pulled the tab out and then pushed it in for 10 seconds. Not only does that contradict the instructions for the device here http://wiki.smarthome.com/index.php?title=Resetting_SwitchLinc_to_Its_Factory_Default_Settings but it doesn't work on my SL (non-dimming). If I hold the button 10 secs (after air gap), the LEDs flash and I am in linking mode, which is what this instruction tells you (minus the air gap step) http://wiki.smarthome.com/index.php?title=Linking_SwitchLinc_to_Control_an_INSTEON_Device The amount of conflicting information is driving me nuts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hi tome, I can only respond to your question vis-a-vis reading the links in a device. You can already do that using Tools | Diagnostics | Show Device Link Table. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveL Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I have to jump in one more time on this. There are a lot of tricks that are shown in are classes that are not in the product quick start guide or manual. This tricks are for dealers to use on there installs and not for the customer in most cases. It is that very reason that you may find a conflict between the two. In some cases when I do a class I will tell the people in the class to forget everything they think they already know about INSTEON with regards to manual linking and I show them short cuts and more efficient ways to program. Does it make our manuals wrong, NO. The documentation that we provide with the products is exactly what we want the customer to have. What we teach in our class for the professional dealer is exactly what we want them to know. Steve L Smartlabs info@insteon.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tome Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hi tome, I can only respond to your question vis-a-vis reading the links in a device. You can already do that using Tools | Diagnostics | Show Device Link Table. With kind regards, Michel Cool, I forgot about that. Now I just need to learn to understand the format of the links! Can't you answer this one as well? "Second, when I do a Restore on a device (or all devices) from the ISY, I thought - please correct me if I am wrong - that all links are removed and only those in the ISY are written back. Is that not the case? And if it is the case, why not use this instead of a factory reset? " Thanks, Tome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hi tome, Yes, it is true but, in some cases, there might be some other memory locations which impact the correct "operation" of your KPL and those might have somehow been corrupted (especially during power surge). Those issues can only be resolved by a factory reset. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Also, any X10 codes programmed into a device (intentionally or unintentionally) are not removed by Restore Device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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