Dare I ask .......

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

I understand that thinking but still not 100% convinced because there just aren't any hardware controllers that include the majority of things I use Home Automation for. Lighting and audio and thermostats and cameras and motion detectors are all things that I am actually disengaging from my HA system to some extent because I can find stand alone solutions that do the same thing more simply. Motion sensing light switches, switches with built-in timers, programmable thermostats, and security cameras are all things that can be installed using stand alone products with only minor additional advantages if you incorporate them into a central controller. Things that really benefit me from Home Automation from my perspective are the integrations you can't find out of the box solutions for.

Some examples from my system:

Having the music mute in a room (and only that room) when the phone rings or is picked up to make a call or there is an intercom announcement or a critical system warning.

Verbal alerts when significant unexpected events happen with key equipment like the generator, well pump, furnaces, etc.

So I guess I don't need HA to do most remote control or automatic control functions so much as I need it to keep me apprised in a timely fashion of what is going on in areas I cannot see or to create new functionality that is not available in any existing product. If I were to go with something like Hubitat I would not use much of what they offer because it is not that useful while at the same time I would miss a lot of functionality that they do not support. Not picking on Hubitat as the same is true with pretty much any single box solution.

 

Home automation generally refers to the things you're trying to get away from. But it is unique to each individual needs so I get where you're coming from. 

Some of those things you talk about can be done depending on equipment used (as well as system). 

For me, automation is an experience. By making lighting more responsive and dynamic, you get more satisfaction than you ever could with simple timer devices.

Take bathroom lights. I can put in a basic motion switch which will turn them on and off. I take it a step further by having the lights dim as it gets later in the evening. Early morning, they'll turn on slower to full brightness to help your eyes adjust to start your day. The ramp rate goes up the later it gets as the sun is at full brightness and your more likely moving around fully awake. 

The same with a timer switch. I could use a simple timer switch for my outdoor lights. However, mine dim down the later it gets. Should someone come to the door or we unlock it to leave, they'll turn on 100%.

The same applies to the back yard. Unlocking the back door at night to let the dogs out will set the patio lights to a low level and disable the motion lights so they don't turn on full blast. Once back inside with the doors locked, everything turns off and goes back to normal. There's more such as having the lights turn on automatically to our personal settings should one of us be outside as it gets dark (based on lux not time).

Using our thermostats, the ceiling fans turn on/off on their own depending on different factors if a room is occupied. Should a fan be on when the AC kicks in, they'll turn themselves off after a few minutes from helping to circulate the air. When cooking, the AC will turn down the temp a few degrees to account for the heat.

With AV equipment integrated into lighting, you gain so much more than controlling something with an app. Our living room tv turns on automatically when someone comes home and shuts off when it's bedtime. Since we fall asleep with the tv on, the bedroom tv will automatically shut down once we're asleep so it doesn't stay on all night. Depending on activity, the theater will set the lights the way we want it. Lights turn on for movies and turn off on their own. Pausing a movie will turn on the lights to a dim level and hallway lights so that a person can go to the bathroom or do whatever.

Regardless of room, if someone turns a tv on while music is playing, the music will turn down. If we go outside to hang out with the LR tv on, the tv will turn off on its own eventually. 

These things and more is what I refer to as an experience and what i need from a system. 

[Jason Miller]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:00 AM, upstatemike said:

The real future is Tuya Smartlife. If you use a voice assistant you are already dependent on the cloud anyway so you might as well get Tuya Smartlife compatible stuff and stop agonizing over all the competing technologies.

I am trying to research this. Many of the products seem like actual bulbs and such, versus switches for existing fixtures? I am ok being on the cloud, as yes, Alexa is what I use to control my ISY now anyways.

[Jason Miller]

On 9/20/2021 at 6:42 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

As soon as the last thread dies a new one pops up starting the whole debate all over again. 

What technology a person chooses for the future is irrelevant since anything can take over at anytime. Figure out what controller you want to use and go with products that work with it.

Reality is that there are no perfect standards. Every single one has their own pros and cons. It's really up to the individual to decide what matters most to them and what fits into what they need. While asking on forums is nice, all you'll end up getting is what fits each individual that responds. 

Take myself for example. Im all about simplicity, aesthetics, and experience. Because of that, the only 3 protocols I'd use are insteon, Control 4, and Radio Ra2. 

While there are some aesthetically pleasing zwave switches, zwave still misses the mark on simplicity and experience by a large amount making it a non starter for me. 

Insteon does meet all 3 of my minimum criteria so they're part of my list. While the old line has grown long in the tooth on design, the new is infinitely better looking. In addition to looks, the feel and response is top notch. In regards to simplicity, all devices can be controllers, responders, give status, etc. There's no guessing game or parameters to concern yourself with. Everything just works with each other. 

If insteon were to shut down in the next 5 years, my stuff would still be working. Their existence changes nothing about my home. If it shits down in 10. So what!!! Same thing. My house will still work and when it stops, it's cheap enough that I'm ok with swapping them out for something else.

With Ra2, their protocol is second to none. If set up properly, they'll work forever without fail. While looks are subjective for their basic switches, they do have others that look really good. While Ra2 is limited programming wise, the Isy changes that (after all we're talking about using the Isy). The Ra2 lighting experience is amazing (as it should be since Lutron invented the dimmer). 

The icing on the cake is that it can be used with other controllers as well so you still have other options in the future. The downside is price. Depending on needs, the free course may be enough. If not, the advanced course costs. However, it's cheaper to spend the 650 or so that it costs than it is to pay someone to do it for you. Still device cost and training is an additional expense that limits most people. 

For me, C4 has the aesthetics, it's simple to program, and the experience is amazing as well (though not as amazing as Lutron). In addition, it's ability to be integrated with A/V naturally, makes it even better.

Just like RA2, the downside is that it's installer only. 

Tuya and other wifi devices should be a non-starter for any serious HA enthusiast. All of those cheap things are extremely limited long term due to lack of scalability and flexibility.

The power of any system resides in the controller not the devices so that does help with tuya and other wifi based devices but they can only do so much. 

I would recommend looking at all the options the Isy supports (if this is the controller of choice) and research each one's pros and cons to see what fits your needs

 

 

My intent isn't to start a debate. I'm literally tired of reading the debates and want someone to lay out what they plan to do. What this has proven to me, it's all still an unknown and it's a time of change. So, debates are just that, as nothing is really the leader until it all sorts.

My issue with Insteon, everything has been out of stock for nearly a year. My stuff is starting to break so I wanted to sort what's the best path forward, thus my question.

[Jason Miller]

What great reading this has been .. sitting here Saturday morning, a week or so after my initial post. For anyone that cares, here is my summary:

• The future us unknown .. and still sorting .. so no "answer" and it's all up to debate
• WIFI exclusive devices, without radio signals, might have an issue with single points of failure
• A controller, for serious stuff is needed (I do use wind data to control things .. and this point made me really think)

For the time being since I cannot find any suppliers with Insteon switches in stock, I replaced the broken ones by reverting switches I don't use for HA, back to standard, and taking those to replace the broken things.

I'm back online, ISY994i with Amazon Alexa controlling everything.

I'll check back in a few months and see what progress, if any, has been made.

Thanks.

[lilyoyo1]

32 minutes ago, Jason Miller said:

What great reading this has been .. sitting here Saturday morning, a week or so after my initial post. For anyone that cares, here is my summary:

• The future us unknown .. and still sorting .. so no "answer" and it's all up to debate
• WIFI exclusive devices, without radio signals, might have an issue with single points of failure
• A controller, for serious stuff is needed (I do use wind data to control things .. and this point made me really think)

For the time being since I cannot find any suppliers with Insteon switches in stock, I replaced the broken ones by reverting switches I don't use for HA, back to standard, and taking those to replace the broken things.

I'm back online, ISY994i with Amazon Alexa controlling everything.

I'll check back in a few months and see what progress, if any, has been made.

Thanks.

Did you look on smarthome.com where they are sold? They are showing that all of their switches are in stock and have for at least the past month

[lilyoyo1]

9 hours ago, Jason Miller said:

My intent isn't to start a debate. I'm literally tired of reading the debates and want someone to lay out what they plan to do. What this has proven to me, it's all still an unknown and it's a time of change. So, debates are just that, as nothing is really the leader until it all sorts.

My issue with Insteon, everything has been out of stock for nearly a year. My stuff is starting to break so I wanted to sort what's the best path forward, thus my question.

No one can lay anything out for you which is why these debates go on forever like they do. There are so many different products and protocols that there's something for everyone. It's best for you to look at the pros and cons of all systems, and see what works best for you and what you're trying to do as everyone's situation is different. 

It's like asking someone what's the best car to buy. A Ford person will say ford while a Chevy person will say Chevy.

For me, my next system is shaping up to be Control 4. However, not many people can pay (or want to pay) what C4 costs. The other downside is that it requires a dealer to install and maintain (there's some things a user can do themselves). If you were to ask me what's next, I'd say C4, which probably doesn't fit what you want to accomplish. 

[asbril]

4 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The other downside is that it requires a dealer to install and maintain

Apples & Oranges. This ISY forum would not exist if that is what we are looking for.

[lilyoyo1]

12 minutes ago, asbril said:

Apples & Oranges. This ISY forum would not exist if that is what we are looking for.

??? You have to take the whole statement into context not just a single line