Status difference between Zwave and Insteon plug in modules after short power outage?

[jpoje]

I just upgraded my ISY994i to Zwave and have added my first Zwave device, a simple Leviton Plug in Module. I included it in my coffee pot scene and programs, so it is now turning my coffee pot on and off just like my previous Insteon ApplianceLinc did.

I noticed this morning, after a short power outage, that my coffee pot was off. When the power was restored, the Leviton Plug Module powered back up in the OFF position, while the Admin Console still showed the device's status as ON (My ISY is on backup power, so does not go off with short power outages).

In comparison, the Insteon ApplianceLinc, after a power outage, would power back up in the ON position (or whatever state it was in prior to power outage). 

My question is, do all Zwave devices work like this? Or is there a setting I can change to have device come back on in whatever state ISY has it at?  Thanks!

Edited September 20, 2021 by jpoje

[Mecheng70]

There may be a parameter that can set to previous after power outage.  Inovelli does this.  Have you checked with the mfg to see what parameters are available?

[asbril]

I have never consciously checked this, but I believe that a power outage should not change the status of a Zwave plug. From your post I understand that you only have 1 Zwave device. In that case, you may have an issue of a weak mesh network and having more Zwave devices is recommended.

[jpoje]

Okay thanks for quick response. I have more Zwave devices arriving this week.

I did test the plug in module in an outlet less than 2 feet from the ISY unit. I can control on, off, query successfully from the Admin Console, module responds quickly.

When I manually remove module from the outlet in the ON position and insert back in, everytime it defaults back to OFF position. Admin Console's status on this module still indicates ON. I then performed a query and Admin Console updates to OFF.

The Zwave module does not seem to remember it's status when removed from outlet and in comparison the Insteon module does?

 

[mwester]

The behavior you are observing has nothing to do with Z-Wave vs Insteon -- it has everything to do with how the specific manufacturer of that specific Z-Wave module decided it should behave on power-up.

Either look for a setting (aka "parameter") for your Z-Wave device to change that, or find another manufacturer of similar Z-Wave devices that behaves the way you wish.

[jpoje]

I see now in Admin Console there is a parameter setting. I will need to research that manufacturer to see how to set the parameters. Thank you.

[LarryCRetired]

@jpoje and @asbril or others 

i am looking for a module that, after a power outage, will come back in the off position when the power is restored.  Could either of you let me know if it is possible with a zwave module to set this parameter.  I have not found a way with insteon but I am far from being an expert  

Much appreciated and thank you

[Brian H]

There where a few revisions of the 2456S and 2856S Insteon Appliance Modules. That defaulted to Off when On before the power loss.

I have not seen any Insteon Modules presently sold with that action.

[Techman]

40 minutes ago, LarryCRetired said:

@jpoje and @asbril or others 

i am looking for a module that, after a power outage, will come back in the off position when the power is restored.  Could either of you let me know if it is possible with a zwave module to set this parameter.  I have not found a way with insteon but I am far from being an expert  

Much appreciated and thank you

The Aeotec Smart Switch 7 will do what you're looking for and has some very neat features.

It's compatible and tested with the ISY

Edited September 20, 2021 by Techman

[jpoje]

I just purchased the Leviton DZPA1-2BW Decora Smart Plug-In from Amazon, and it defaults to OFF after a power failure.

[LarryCRetired]

Thanks guys.  I will take a look at these modules. 

Very much appreciate your timely response.  

[Teken]

Some things to consider as it pertains to personal safety when considering automating. Things that control and manage water like the main feed, fire sprinkler, sump. Anything that manages the HVAC system.

Things that produce heat like a coffee maker / kettle. To anything that moves or spins should not be integrated with a switch - outlet to come on by default.

Unless you’re absolutely sure the same can not ever cause harm.

In the various industries this is known as fail safe vs fail secure. As others noted many of these have built in memory to offer *Last known state* whether on / off. The vast majority of hardware in the past always defaulted to a off state (Fail Safe) due to safety and liability reasons.

Fail secure devices are normally used for devices that must always have power to guard against adding to a problem. They are normally used on fire control, security alarms, fridge, freezer, sump, well, air exchange systems etc.

Any device you believe offers fail secure (On when power is applied) should be validated as so by short cycling the device. This does not mean unplugging the device as you will never ever be fast enough to switch off the power from on-off-on!

You either do this at breaker or wire it to a power bar with a toggle switch. You’ll quickly find out what you believe is Fail Secure hinges upon how much time has elapsed as many use capacitors to buffer their electronics to avoid unintended operations / change of state.

Now with the growing so called cloud power devices you must be doubly sure to validate! There have been countless examples where the cloud was rebooted and caused a device to turn on / off! Well outside of what the device was set up to do in the past reliably.

Think millions of people who had NEST turn off the heat in the dead of winter!

Test, validate, confirm - don’t guess!

[jpoje]

Question: So when power is restored to the Insteon Appliancelinc, is the device itself "remembering" it's last status prior to the power interruption, or is the device checking/verifying what status it should be in, with the ISY and/or PLM?

[Teken]

Question: So when power is restored to the Insteon Appliancelinc, is the device itself "remembering" it's last status prior to the power interruption, or is the device checking/verifying what status it should be in, with the ISY and/or PLM?

This is done at the device level.

[jpoje]

So then the Leviton Zwave device I just purchased would be the "safer" device to use for the coffee pot, as it always defaults to OFF when power is restored. Just inconvenient when you have power interruptions often.

But then another question: Why do the Insteon LED Bulbs not "remember" their OFF status prior to power interruptions? This is not a safety concern, just a pain when the bulbs go ON after power interruptions that occur during the night.

Edited September 21, 2021 by jpoje

[Teken]

So then the Leviton Zwave device I just purchased would be the "safer" device to use for the coffee pot, as it always defaults to OFF when power is restored. Just inconvenient when you have power interruptions often.
But then another question: Why do the Insteon LED Bulbs not "remember" their OFF status prior to power interruptions? This is not a safety concern, just a pain when the bulbs go ON after power interruptions that occur during the night.

Safer is dependent upon its use case and application. I offered my feedback to insure others who may follow you or not consider the implications as to the possibilities of doing so.

Depending upon what model Insteon bulb you have one operates as you noted in the on-off state. Whereas the later generations incorporated last known state.

[Techman]

38 minutes ago, jpoje said:

Question: So when power is restored to the Insteon Appliancelinc, is the device itself "remembering" it's last status prior to the power interruption, or is the device checking/verifying what status it should be in, with the ISY and/or PLM?

In the event of a power loss ApplianceLinc will automatically default the load to off when power is restored

[Teken]

In the event of a power loss ApplianceLinc will automatically default the load to off when power is restored

That’s depending upon the model year it was purchased in. Early models behaved the way you just stated. While later models came back on upon power restore.

There’s a use case for both so understanding why the third generation of last known state was a good balance.

[jpoje]

12 minutes ago, Techman said:

In the event of a power loss ApplianceLinc will automatically default the load to off when power is restored

Possibly there are versions that do default to off? But my Insteon Appliancelinc does not automatically default to off when power is restored, as I tested it, along with a Leviton Zwave Plug In Module this morning.

The Insteon defaulted to it's previous state, while the Zwave always defaulted to off. That was the reason for my original post to try to understand why.

After Teken's explanation above, I have a better understanding, and was able to choose which device is better suited for my particular application ?

[Teken]

Possibly there are versions that do default to off? But my Insteon Appliancelinc does not automatically default to off when power is restored, as I tested it, along with a Leviton Zwave Plug In Module this morning.
The Insteon defaulted to it's previous state, while the Zwave always defaulted to off. That was the reason for my original post to try to understand why.
After Teken's explanation above, I have a better understanding, and was able to choose which device is better suited for my particular application

Just to affirm you need to short cycle that Leviton smart plug to validate it actually does operate as you intend.

Both states (On-Off) must be confirmed as being true.

[Brian H]

2 hours ago, Techman said:

In the event of a power loss ApplianceLinc will automatically default the load to off when power is restored

Most revisions of the 2456S3 Appliancelinc and 2856S Icon On Off modules. Remember if it was on or off. With  a power loss and restoration. It will be on or off depending if it was on or off when power was lost.

I have a revision 4.2 of the 2456S3 module. Always powered up off. Even if it was on after a power loss. I believe in my spares there is a 2856S Icon with the same always power off action.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Brian H

[LarryCRetired]

@Techman

A while back you pointed me to an Aeotec Smart Switch.  Installed it today.  Works like a charm to come back from a power outage in the off position  

Thank you so much