isy99 not sending the same on/off as an insteon device?

[gjfrater]

Hello All,

 

I know the subject line is not right but that's how it seems with my IOLink. I've got an IOLink connected to my garage door opener and set in 'Momentary C' mode (http://wiki.smarthome.com/index.php?title=I/O_Linc_Output_Relay_Modes). In this mode the door is supposed to close with an off command and open with an on command. It will also only close if open and only open if closed based on the input relay. When I link another Insteon controller, say a dimmer switch to the IOLink it works as described. Turning the dimmer on opens the garage door and turning it off closes the garage. However, when I send an on command from the ISY the door will open or close (depending on it's current position), an off command does nothing. Any ideas why the ISY on/off commands cause the IOLink to act differently than a standard Insteon controllers on/off commands? When a device is listed in the ISY under "My Lighting" does the Insteon device see the ISY as having a controller/responder type link with the ISY or is it something else?

 

Thanks,

 

-greg

[Sub-Routine]

Hi greg,

 

All I can think of is the IOLinc is responding to a direct command differently than a group command. Insteon devices always send group commands.

 

Try putting the IOLinc in a scene and then controlling the scene.

 

Rand

[gjfrater]

Hey Randy thanks for the suggestion but no luck.

 

When I put the IOLink in a scene it does not work at all. The IOLink is not responding to the on/off commands of the scene. The "state" of the IOLink changes in the ISY when I send an on or off scene command but the garage door does not respond. It only responds to the on command which causes it to go up or down depending on it's currrent state or if linked to an Insteon device it will respond to the off command to close the door. Any other ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

-greg

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi greg,

 

Please do be kind enough to try our 2.7.7 firmware. Once you have this installed, then use http:/www.universal-devices.com/99i/2.7.7, make sure the options are correct (Momentary C), and then let us know how it works out.

 

If you are interested in installing our 2.7.7 alpha release (which is very stable), please send an email to support@universal-devices.com.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

Hey Randy thanks for the suggestion but no luck.

 

When I put the IOLink in a scene it does not work at all. The IOLink is not responding to the on/off commands of the scene. The "state" of the IOLink changes in the ISY when I send an on or off scene command but the garage door does not respond. It only responds to the on command which causes it to go up or down depending on it's currrent state or if linked to an Insteon device it will respond to the off command to close the door. Any other ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

-greg

[gjfrater]

Man you guys are on it. I got a response from Randy at 6:00 AM and Michael at 9:30 PM both on a Saturday!!! I hope you guys are either paid well or own the company! In any case it seems you are dedicated to customers. Thank you for that.

 

I updated to 2.7.7 last week, but I'm seeing no difference. It's possible though that I'm making some minor mistakes that are messing me up. I'd like to get some clarification on some things to help me out.

 

1. Is there a difference between 2.7.7 and 2.7.7 alpha, it seems so from your (Michael's response)?

 

2. When changing the options for the io link through the ISY does that mean I don't need to change them on the io link itself? As a follow on, if they've been set on the io link and then they are set on the ISY what happens (ie does one override the other, what happens if they're set differently on the io link than the ISY)?

 

3. I have not seen documentation for some of the options you have listed for the io link can you give me a discription of the following (or a link to their docs)?

- Program Lock

- Relay follows input

- Trigger off

- Momentary: look at sensor (is this what they call 'Momentary C'

- Momentary: Both

 

There may be more I need but I'm getting confused over simple things when setting this up, it's just not working the way I understand it should. I'm hoping that's because I don't know what I'm doing as opposed to a bug in software or hardware. Thanks again for the help.

 

-greg

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi greg,

 

1. If you change anything on ISY, it overrides whatever you have done locally on the device

2. 2.7.7=2.7.7/1 (the one you have installed) should have this issue fixed. I think the problem is that you are not using this specific URL: http://www.universal-devices.com/99i/2.7.7/admin.jnlp

3. When you use the above mentioned URL, you will get different labels which would make much more sense + they will fix the issues you are having

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[gjfrater]

Hey Michel,

 

Sorry I did not respond sooner on this, I thought I would have time to mess with it during the holidays but never had enough time to actually sit down and test different settings. I finally made some time. Unfortunately the new code and the URL in your post above are not resolving the problem.

 

I am seeing the new options with the URL you gave me and yes they are easier to follow, thanks. Below is what I'm seeing with my unit. I have tried all 4 combinations of the Momentary C setting with Relay follows input on and off and Trigger reverse on and off. I ignored the other options (x10, local lockout, etc.) as they do not apply to this scenario. It does not matter how I have these options set I get the same behavior from the ISY/io link with each.

 

Sending an 'on' command from the ISY opens or closes the door no matter what state either the io input or output is in.

 

An off command does not trigger the door no matter what. The only change I can see when issuing an 'off' command from the ISY is that it will change the state of the io link input from 'on' to 'off' if it's currently set to on.

 

The state of the io link output (door opener) never changes state in the ISY gui unless you either use the query command or when sending an off command when it's set to on.

 

The state of the sensor (io link input) does not change in the ISY unless you issue the query command. Opening and closing the door does NOT change it's state in the ISY.

 

I am currently using an ISY99i running 2.7.7 code and the io link (2450) is running .36 code. Any other ideas on this?

 

Thanks,

 

-greg

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi greg,

 

This seems to be an issue with the IOLinc itself: if you turn it on and it turns off by itself even though you are not in momentary mode, then there's something really wrong.

 

Can you try:

1. Remove the IOLinc from your ISY

2. Do a factory reset on it

3. Add it back to ISY and check again

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[gjfrater]

Okay after removing the io link from the iSY and doing a factory reset on it, I'm not seeing any change in behavior.

 

Even with the momentary B setting I get the same results. Man this stuff can be frustrating.

 

My early troubleshooting with a smarthome tech showed the io link working as designed. We set a dimmer switch as a controller for the io link and when in Momentary C mode turning the dimmer on the garage door would open and turning the dimmer off would close the garage door. So I think the problem is on the ISY side. What else can we do to troubleshoot this? I've looked as the logs but don't see anything obvious would it be helpful to post them? Is there something else I can provide that would be effective?

 

Thanks,

 

-greg

[Michel Kohanim]

greg,

 

Yes, this must be quite frustrating ...

 

First of all, let's make sure that we are coming to the right conclusions: I am not sure I understand how we arrived at IOLinc working properly and ISY being the culprit. In short, you linked a dimmer as a controller to your IOLinc and it worked properly. Whereas, in your previous posts, it seems as if you are controlling the IOLinc relay from the Admin Console and not from a controller (or a scene).

 

One more test:

What happens if you create a scene, put your dimmer as a controller and the IOLinc RELAY as the responder? Does IOLinc respond properly?

 

Please note that IOLinc will never ever send a status update when it turns off (or on) in momentary mode.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[craigf]

Has there been a solution to this yet? I am having the same exact behavior with my ioLink. I have upgraded to 2.7.15 with the same results. It works as expected with a controller but not with the ISY99. Any ideas?

[oberkc]

I am just starting to fool around with the garage door kit, myself. I have found there to be many things that can go wrong. While I have not tried setting up the kit in the same configuration as you, I have at least found it to work as advertised with the ISY.

 

I am curious as to your response to Michel's most recent (Jan 24) questions. When you created a scene through ISY, did the scene include the relay? The sensor? The dimmer switch? Which of these, if any, were controllers?

 

When you selected the various devices within the created scene (and when selecting the scene, itself), what are their "on" levels. More specifically, what is the "on" level for the relay. I found that when adding a controller to a scene with the relay, the relay "on" level was initially set to zero and that the relay appeared not to respond to an on command. I had to change the relay "on" levels to 100% before it would respond.

 

When looking at your IOlinc options, have you tried the "relay follows sensor" option? Without this, I wonder if your IOlinc thinks that it is in only one state.

 

The state of the io link output (door opener) never changes state in the ISY gui unless you either use the query command or when sending an off command when it's set to on.

 

That statement concerns me a little. Are you speaking of the state of the sensor or the state of the relay? If you don't see state changes of the sensor, then I wonder if you are experiencing some intermittent communication issues.

 

My relay state also does not change (it is always on), but I assume this is normal for my setup. However, I am using only "on" commands (momentary to activate the garage door. I wonder, again, if selecting "relay follows sensor" would help you with your problem.

[craigf]

I have not created any scenes yet that use the sensor or relay. I am still trying to get the basic functionality of the Momentary C relay to work. If us link to a ControLinc, then the relay works with respect to the sensor. For example, if the sensor is open, then the relay only momentarily closes if you press the off button. It does not activate the relay if you hit the on button. The similar case is true if the sensor is closed. Then the relay only cycles when you hit the on button and does nothing when you hit the off button. This is the described operation of the IO Linc when set to the Momentary C relay action. Now, if the sensor is open and I use the ISY to send an ON command, the relay cycles momentarily (wrong operation). If I send an OFF command, the relay does not cycle (wrong operation). If the sensor is closed and I send an ON command, the relay cycles (correct operation), if I send a OFF command, the relay does nothing (correct operation). I get the same operation no matter what the sensor condition is.

 

As for seeing the relay and sensor status, I can see the changes of state for both of them.

 

This really does seem like an ISY issue. It should be easy to test and replicate on other systems.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello craigf,

 

If you are testing momentary C, then the IOLinc must be in a scene with a controller. I am not certain how else you can test.

 

Furthermore, please ensure that you have the latest firmware for the IOLinc. The older ones reported the status of the relay for the sensor.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[oberkc]

I have not created any scenes yet that use the sensor or relay.

 

I am with the others harboring a certain level of uncertainty about any conclusions at this point. In an attempt to help, some have suggested creating a scene. You have yet to try this yet?!

 

In general, I have found that when one uses the ISY-99, links (known as insteon scenes) must be created by the ISY if you want to take advantage of the capability offered. Manually creating them as you have done here tends to cause problems when trying to use the ISY. This is true whether one is talking about garage doors or switches.

 

With regard to the garage door kit, I suggest starting over. Remove the device from the ISY. Factory reset the relay (eliminating residual links). Reset, also, the switch to which the relay was linked manually. Re-add the device to the ISY.

 

Disregard the smarthome instructions for linking (creating scenes). These instructions assume you have no whole-house controller such as the ISY-99. The ISY will create the scenes for you, instead. If you want to link a garage door kit and a switch, do it through the ISY, rather than manually.

 

Once the device shows up in your admin panel, review the UDI wiki instructions for the garage door sensor. I have found the following pages most useful:

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/mwiki/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Garage_Door_Kit

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/mwiki/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Linking_an_I/O_Linc

 

I have found the garage door kit to be the most complicated of the insteon devices I have used so far. It took me several attampts to get it working as I want. I am confident, also, that the smart people around here can help out, but it tends to work better if you follow their suggestions and respond to their questions.

[craigf]

You have yet to try this yet?!

 

 

Never said I didn't try it. Also, that is not really the topic of this thread. I am trying to get an understanding of why it works the way it does with the ISY.

 

If we review the manual for the IO link, it states that when the relay is set to Momentary C, the sensor will determine if the relay will respond or not. So, obviously the IOLinc has some internal logic as to whether the relay will energize. This independent of any other device, it is built into the IO Linc. If the IO Linc gets an ON command, it will check the sensor to determine if the relay should respond. If it gets an OFF command, it again evaluates whether the relay should respond based upon the sensor input. It should be noted that the behavior can be programmed to respond to and open or closed sensor with respect to an ON or OFF command.

 

Now that we have that clear, it would appear that we should get this behavior when controlled by the ISY. In other words, I would expect that when I go to "My Lighting" and choose the "Garage - Relay" and send it an ON command, the relay should only respond when the sensor is in the closed status. Accordingly, when sending an OFF command, it should only respond when the sensor is open. It does not do that. The relay always responds to an ON command regardless of the sensor state.

 

When linked to a controller such as the ControLinc, the operation is correct as stated in the manual. When the relay is included in a scene, it also works as expected. (I said it wasn't in a scene, I didn't say that I didn't try it in a scene and it didn't work) I don't plan on using the relay in a scene or with a controller, I plan on using it in a program so I really didn't see a reason to create a scene for it.

 

Getting to the subject of this thread, it would appear that ISY sends a different ON command than an Insteon controller. When an Insteon controller sends an ON, it works as stated. When ISY sends an ON command from "My Lighting", it does not work according to the internal logic of the IO Linc. So, ISY must be sending something other than the same command as an Insteon controller. That is the part we are trying to understand.

 

 

I have found the garage door kit to be the most complicated of the insteon devices I have used so far.

 

So far it seems pretty straight forward. I am just curious why sending an ON command to the relay from ISY seems to override the internal logic of the IO Linc.

 

Also, I believe I have the latest version of the firmware since the IO Linc is only a week old and the ISY properly displays both the sensor and relay status independently.

 

So, back to our original question of whether the ISY sends a different command than and Insteon controller. If so, why? If it does, than it will make the programming more difficult. I will admit that I haven't written the program yet and I know I can write the logic to make it work the prescribed way, but it would be nice if I didn't have to write the logic that is already built into the IO Linc.

[Sub-Routine]

Hi craigf,

 

In Insteon speak a direct On command is different than a group (scene) command.

 

Sending a direct On command from the ISY will always turn on the relay.

 

Sending a scene command will use the IOLinc parameters to determine the state of the device and the relay should act according to the sensor status.

 

It should be easy enough to call a scene On rather than the device On from a program. Or am I missing something?

 

Rand

[oberkc]

Sending a scene command will use the IOLinc parameters to determine the state of the device and the relay should act according to the sensor status.

 

Rand,

 

When two devices are linked (put in a scene) manually, is the controlling device sending a scene command or a direct on/off command? I am assuming it is a scene command.

 

Perhaps there is an unstated assumption here that when two devices are linked manually, they issue direct commands similar to those of the ISY direct commands?

[LeeG]

When two Insteon devices are linked together Group (Scene) commands are always used (not discussing HA devices, PLM/SmartLinc, etc). I know of no Insteon device (again excluding HA devices) that can send an Insteon Direct command for control. There are Set button linking sequences that use Direct commands (because links have not yet been established) and of course Direct commands are often used by HA. As far as device A sending a command to device B in response to paddle/button/sensor state change they are always Group (Scene) commands.