Z-Wave help please

[PatPend]

Pulling what's left of my hair out.  I have been trying to add Zwave Plus devices to my network consisting of an ISY-994i v5.3.4 with a 500 series Zwave dongle, a serial PLM and a few dozen Insteon modules - and failing miserably.   The ISY is in the basement.  One plug-in module (module A) about 20' away in the basement works fine.   Three modules in a first floor room above the ISY work fine (modules B,C are on-off switches, D is a fan speed control).  Another module E about 20' away from B, C, and D through an intervening wall full of A/C ducts works okay (outlet).  Any modules added beyond module E either work intermittently or not at all.   My initial impression is that ZWave signals are super weak and not up to the task, in fact one could say the entire Zwave system is rigged to make you buy lots of modules to gain any sort of reliability.  But I digress.

Modules A through D were included into the network at their install positions, apparently they are close enough to the ISY to it to register these units.  The rest were included using a pigtail cable to power the device from an outlet adjacent to the ISY, after which the modules worked at that location.  When they were moved to their installation locations about 15-25' from module E, they do not work.  By my count they are three hops away from the ISY: ISY->B/C/D->E->F = three hops so that should not be the issue.

What's driving me nuts is a few days ago, before installing module E permanently, it worked fine on the pigtail at a location 25' beyond E's permanent location, let's call that location F.  So I know RF is propagating to location F.  But now, with module E installed, a module at location F does not work.  ???

So my first question is, doesn't including modules adjacent to the ISY then moving them to another location mess up the mesh topology, and if so how is this corrected?  "Update Neighbors" doesn't seem to to anything.  "Heal network" is no longer supported in 5.3.4 so that's not it.  If the network is self-healing how long does it take to sort itself out?

Edited November 17, 2021 by PatPend

[asbril]

33 minutes ago, PatPend said:

Pulling what's left of my hair out.  I have been trying to add Zwave Plus devices to my network consisting of an ISY-994i v5.3.4 with a 500 series Zwave dongle, a serial PLM and a few dozen Insteon modules - and failing miserably.   The ISY is in the basement.  One plug-in module (module A) about 20' away in the basement works fine.   Three modules in a first floor room above the ISY work fine (modules B,C are on-off switches, D is a fan speed control).  Another module E about 20' away from B, C, and D through an intervening wall full of A/C ducts works okay (outlet).  Any modules added beyond module E either work intermittently or not at all.   My initial impression is that ZWave signals are super weak and not up to the task, in fact one could say the entire Zwave system is rigged to make you buy lots of modules to gain any sort of reliability.  But I digress.

Modules A through D were included into the network at their install positions, apparently they are close enough to the ISY to it to register these units.  The rest were included using a pigtail cable to power the device from an outlet adjacent to the ISY, after which the modules worked at that location.  When they were moved to their installation locations about 15-25' from module E, they do not work.  By my count they are three hops away from the ISY: ISY->B/C/D->E->F = three hops so that should not be the issue.

What's driving me nuts is a few days ago, before installing module E permanently, it worked fine on the pigtail at a location 25' beyond E's permanent location, let's call that location F.  So I know RF is propagating to location F.  But now, with module E installed, a module at location F does not work.  ???

So my first question is, doesn't including modules adjacent to the ISY then moving them to another location mess up the mesh topology, and if so how is this corrected?  "Update Neighbors" doesn't seem to to anything.  "Heal network" is no longer supported in 5.3.4 so that's not it.  If the network is self-healing how long does it take to sort itself out?

This is indeed weird. First I would try Update Neighbors (which replaced Heal). Right click on the device, Zwave, Update Neighbors. If that does not work, then try to move one of the devices that do work and see if that one communicates with ISY from the location. If the second device does work at that location, then exclude it and re-include it. If that does not work either, then try factory reset. And if that does not work, then something is wrong with the device.

[lilyoyo1]

6 hours ago, PatPend said:

Pulling what's left of my hair out.  I have been trying to add Zwave Plus devices to my network consisting of an ISY-994i v5.3.4 with a 500 series Zwave dongle, a serial PLM and a few dozen Insteon modules - and failing miserably.   The ISY is in the basement.  One plug-in module (module A) about 20' away in the basement works fine.   Three modules in a first floor room above the ISY work fine (modules B,C are on-off switches, D is a fan speed control).  Another module E about 20' away from B, C, and D through an intervening wall full of A/C ducts works okay (outlet).  Any modules added beyond module E either work intermittently or not at all.   My initial impression is that ZWave signals are super weak and not up to the task, in fact one could say the entire Zwave system is rigged to make you buy lots of modules to gain any sort of reliability.  But I digress.

Modules A through D were included into the network at their install positions, apparently they are close enough to the ISY to it to register these units.  The rest were included using a pigtail cable to power the device from an outlet adjacent to the ISY, after which the modules worked at that location.  When they were moved to their installation locations about 15-25' from module E, they do not work.  By my count they are three hops away from the ISY: ISY->B/C/D->E->F = three hops so that should not be the issue.

What's driving me nuts is a few days ago, before installing module E permanently, it worked fine on the pigtail at a location 25' beyond E's permanent location, let's call that location F.  So I know RF is propagating to location F.  But now, with module E installed, a module at location F does not work.  ???

So my first question is, doesn't including modules adjacent to the ISY then moving them to another location mess up the mesh topology, and if so how is this corrected?  "Update Neighbors" doesn't seem to to anything.  "Heal network" is no longer supported in 5.3.4 so that's not it.  If the network is self-healing how long does it take to sort itself out?

First, I would make sure Network wide inclusion is turned on. This can be found in the zwave menu. Then try adding devices from their final location using that going from closest to Isy and working your way out. 

Zwave uses routed messaging so anytime a device is moved from its original inclusion place, its routing table must be updated. You would achieve this by doing an update neighbors as Asbril mentioned.

Self heal takes time. If setting up a new network that you want to use immediately, I would not trust it. Besides, if a device has problems overall from the start, it doesn't guarantee self healing will work. 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[PatPend]

Appreciate the input!  NWI is and has been turned on.  

I removed node A thinking perhaps the route was taking a hop there before heading to the first floor devices B C and D, two of which are in adjacent gangs of a 5 gang box and the other in a second 5 gang box just above.  My thinking (incorrect as it turns out) was that the signal was routing ISY->A->B->D->E and not having enough hops to reach F.  But this made no difference.

So now I have B, C, D and E working, and F which was included at the ISY successfully but not working at position F.  So I tried to remove F from the network... and the removal succeeded!  So clearly the ISY can talk to F.  Then I tried re-including F and it failed with the error "[ZWAVE-INCL-NODE] Inclusion failed". It appears the ISY is able to communicate at least partially with F.  I did a factory reset on F, and tried again with the same result.  What exactly does this error mean?

I am thinking to remove all ZWave devices, factory reset them all, factory reset the ISY 500 series dongle, and rebuild the network from scratch. I have a sinking feeling this won't do anything but burn more time.  Holding buttons, fiddling with hot pigtailed modules trying not to get electrocuted, waiting for flashes, resetting modules - what a drag -  and gives me the sense I would be better off forgetting about futureproofing with ZWave and just stock up on Insteon modules while I can and hope they outlive me.

[asbril]

1 hour ago, PatPend said:

I would be better off forgetting about futureproofing with ZWave and just stock up on Insteon modules while I can and hope they outlive me.

Now you are opening a sensitive pandora box that had been silent in the recent weeks  . Personally, I try to stay away as much as possible from the Insteon vs Zwave debate as it can provoke strong emotions.

So if you want to go back to exclusive Insteon, good for you. However, your description seems to point to a defective device.

I had suggested to you to change locations between one of the devices that were working fine with the one that you had issues with. Did you try that ? And if yes, what was the result ? Did it show an issue of location or an issue limited to the one device ?

While I am, by far, not as techie as the others commenting, I do have around 80 Zwave devices, and therefore some experience with Zwave.

[lilyoyo1]

7 hours ago, PatPend said:

Appreciate the input!  NWI is and has been turned on.  

I removed node A thinking perhaps the route was taking a hop there before heading to the first floor devices B C and D, two of which are in adjacent gangs of a 5 gang box and the other in a second 5 gang box just above.  My thinking (incorrect as it turns out) was that the signal was routing ISY->A->B->D->E and not having enough hops to reach F.  But this made no difference.

So now I have B, C, D and E working, and F which was included at the ISY successfully but not working at position F.  So I tried to remove F from the network... and the removal succeeded!  So clearly the ISY can talk to F.  Then I tried re-including F and it failed with the error "[ZWAVE-INCL-NODE] Inclusion failed". It appears the ISY is able to communicate at least partially with F.  I did a factory reset on F, and tried again with the same result.  What exactly does this error mean?

I am thinking to remove all ZWave devices, factory reset them all, factory reset the ISY 500 series dongle, and rebuild the network from scratch. I have a sinking feeling this won't do anything but burn more time.  Holding buttons, fiddling with hot pigtailed modules trying not to get electrocuted, waiting for flashes, resetting modules - what a drag -  and gives me the sense I would be better off forgetting about futureproofing with ZWave and just stock up on Insteon modules while I can and hope they outlive me.

It's hard for a long time user of Insteon to transition to zwave due to the inherent differences between the 2. The difficulties and nuances of zwave become readily apparent.

With that said, since you already have the devices, a pigtail, and planning to factory reset anyway, I'd try it one more time.

What I do is add each device to the Isy, so that I know it works and the Isy can communicate with it. Starting with the device which will be closest to the Isy, I'll add it and then install in its final location. I'll then add the second device and install it, working my way out. While I'm getting my 3rd device set up, I'll run update neighbors on the second device. 

I'll follow the same sequence with each device. By installing next to the Isy, I rule out distance and communication issues allowing me to focus on the device itself if it doesn't work. Once at its final location, if there's communication issues, I know I need to fill in the gap somewhere.

Please Note- everything you read about zwave range is open air under perfect scenarios. A device can talk across a football field outside but put it in a metal box behind walls, mirrors , and furniture (not saying this is your home), and now you can barely get communication in the same room. 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[oberkc]

On 11/17/2021 at 3:03 PM, PatPend said:

So my first question is, doesn't including modules adjacent to the ISY then moving them to another location mess up the mesh topology, and if so how is this corrected? 

This is how I have done a lot of my devices.  In a couple of cases, this is the only way I could get it to work.  I sometimes update them, and when I check the neighbors for each device, the logical ones seem recognized.

[PatPend]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:00 AM, asbril said:

I had suggested to you to change locations between one of the devices that were working fine with the one that you had issues with. Did you try that ? And if yes, what was the result ? Did it show an issue of location or an issue limited to the one device ?

I spent some time yesterday doing this in various combinations.  I swapped the module at location F (that was not responding) with the one at location E (which was).  After the swap the E location module worked and the F did not work.  I also tried removing the modules, resetting them, and including them using a pigtail right next to the ISY.  After this the results were similar but not identical.  The E module still worked consistently but with a 1-2 second delay.  The F module would work maybe once out of 10 times to turn on, but never off, and otherwise was unresponsive with the ISY throwing "Can Not Communicate" errors.  Mesh confusion?

I ran "Update Neighbors" on each node which didn't seem to do anything.  Not sure if updating neighbors happens immediately or takes time, since the ISY shows "Ready" right away I assume it's immediate.  Is this correct?  Or do the modules do their thing in the background?  Is it okay to updates neighbors one right after another in a row, or should I wait some time in-between to allow each module to sort itself out?

Speaking of modules, the ones closest to the ISY and working great are an Aeon Smart Switch 6 plug-in (A), UltraPro/Jasco 39348 (B,C) on-off switches, Honeywell/Jasco 39358 fan speed control (D).  The problematic modules are all Leviton ZW15R switched duplex outlets.  All of the above are ZWave Plus. 

I suspect the Leviton modules are weak sauce.  The distance between E and F is 25.5' and the outlets have a clear line-of-sight to each other - there's nothing in the way except for the wooden legs of a few bar stools.  In the bar cabinet to the right there's an ice maker and a mini-fridge.  You can see the edge of a black box which is a bluetooth subwoofer for a TV about 5' above.  Could these typical household devices interfere with the signal?

I ordered a few Enbrighten/Jasco 55256 outlets to see if they have more mojo than the Levitons.  Maybe being from the same manufacturer they will play more nicely together?

[PatPend]

So it turned out to be a couple of things.  First, although the ISY showed that NWI was enabled, NWI did not actually work until I toggled NWI off then back on again.  Second, in my opinion Leviton ZW15R outlets have really crappy range which was causing them to not include, or if included, to work sporadically.  In comparison, the Enbrighten/Jasco 55256 outlets are so much better and way more in line with expectations of what a wireless device ought to be capable of.  I called Leviton support to see if a fix was available and was told there was not, because my issue was related to range there was nothing they could do.