Insteon Inventory

[lilyoyo1]

6 hours ago, larryllix said:

What is with all the Lutron shilling here lately?

And yet nobody seems to know anything about it. Is it some big secret protocol we are supposed to fall for, just because of it's mystery? That may work for a few but many here are technical people and can think independently.

Spill it, If it is so great. Tell the masses how it works, how the protocol works, technical details, or even how it is any better than x10.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk
 

That sounds ridiculous. For starters, anything is better than X10. If x10 was so great, everyone would be clamoring for it. Just because you haven't taken the time to research it doesn't mean others haven't.

Lutron's name speaks for itself. Most people know the name and equate it with quality and luxury which is what those who want to use it are going for. Not everyone wants tape over their light switches or desire to use low quality stuff to control their home. Some want quality and luxury and are willing to pay for it. 

A person doesn't have to know technical details about a system to want to use it- they just have to be able to read. One only has to do a quick Google search to see the plethora of complaints when it comes to Zwave, insteon, X10, wifi, and so forth in regards to reliability....but not Lutron. Lutron complaints are more about costs and limitations. Even those who once used insteon or zwave and upgraded talk about how much better a system it is. 

I don't care how technical a person is, what people read online is what can make or break a system. The fact that anyone can install it (unlike C4, Crestron, homeworks, and Savant) makes Lutron Ra systems even more appealing. 

I can't speak for others but I'm more excited about Lutron now due to the look and feel of the Sunnata line. With Ra3, they now have a system out that looks the part and based on their history, I trust will continue the tradition of being  rock solid. Business wise, I like that i can use the regular sunnata line in areas home owners may not want to control to ensure everything looks the same. This saves them money since they don't have to pay top dollar for the switch and programming while i make a little extra that i wouldn't have made (if they didn't do the whole home) for the devices and installation. 

Grab a sunnata dimmer from home Depot and see for yourself. You'll see how much better at dimming it is over anything insteon or zwave has. See for yourself how quiet the paddle is when triggered and how elegant the whole thing feels to the touch. That, along with their reputation is why people are excited.

[upstatemike]

27 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That sounds ridiculous. For starters, anything is better than X10. If x10 was so great, everyone would be clamoring for it.

And yet X-10 is still putting out new products so somebody must be buying them.

Not everyone wants tape over their light switches... 

Why are you putting tape over your light switches?

A person doesn't have to know technical details about a system to want to use it- they just have to be able to read. One only has to do a quick Google search to see the plethora of complaints when it comes to Zwave, insteon, X10, wifi, and so forth in regards to reliability....but not Lutron. Lutron complaints are more about costs and limitations. Even those who once used insteon or zwave and upgraded talk about how much better a system it is. 

Fair point. If a platform doesn't really do much there isn't much to complain about. 

I can't speak for others but I'm more excited about Lutron now due to the look and feel of the Sunnata line. With Ra3, they now have a system out that looks the part and based on their history, I trust will continue the tradition of being  rock solid. 

I agree on the looks. Looking foward to seeing the Sunnata style Pico remotes that will blend seamlessly into a multi-gang wall plate with othe RA3 switches.

Grab a sunnata dimmer from home Depot and see for yourself. You'll see how much better at dimming it is over anything insteon or zwave has. See for yourself how quiet the paddle is when triggered and how elegant the whole thing feels to the touch. That, along with their reputation is why people are excited.

Just be careful while you are there not to grab a Maestro switch or plasticy Lutron stand alone motion sensor because they are complete garbage and likely to sour you on the whole Lutron brand.

 

[MrBill]

37 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Lutron's name speaks for itself

I agree... Lutron does nothing half-way.  They have no products that generally fail.  Back in the late 90's or early 00's they had a line of dimmers with triacs that could fail under certain conditions... Lutron paid the electricians 1 hour labor or service call rate to replace it for the customer.

 

[lilyoyo1]

21 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

 

1) you can still buy portable CD players so that's not saying much. The point is, society as a whole has moved past X10. It being around only means there's a segment of society that refuses to let go for a variety of reasons. 

2) I don't put tape on my light switches. Read for context not argument. The point I was making is that some people are ok with covering switches with tape or installing cheap feeling ugly switches because quality doesn't matter to them. For others looks and details do matter. 

3) lutron does more than you realize. You should try using it and familiarize yourself with it before you make statements. Compared to the Isy or systems like it, it's definitely limiting. However, it wasn't designed to be an advanced system. 

It does exactly what it's supposed to do. The problem comes from those who buy it with certain expectations. If i go out and buy a Chromebook to do 4k video editing and play high end games, is it the chromebook's fault when it struggles? No, I didn't get the right system for what I was trying to do. Ra was designed to give what most homeowners want. A way to control their home easily and reliably while looking good doing so. For those who want more, they made it so that it can be integrated with systems that are more capable so people can achieve what their looking for. 

The same applies with zwave. You have wink and smart things for people who want control and timers. Yet the devices can be integrated with other controllers for those who want more capabilities.

4) I spoke specifically about Sunnata and Ra3 for a reason. I'm not a fan of maestro devices. With that said, the system itself is still rock solid regardless of how one feels about the rest. 

[Mustang65]

24 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

1) you can still buy portable CD players so that's not saying much. The point is, society as a whole has moved past X10. It being around only means there's a segment of society that refuses to let go for a variety of reasons. 

 

Is Insteon falling into this category?

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Is Insteon falling into this category?

Insteon itself is. I've already stated the design is long in the tooth. Part of the reason I stopped using it over a year ago and was already planning on C4 in our new home.

All of their issues were bought on themselves not necessarily society moving on. Them choosing not to support Isy and other controllers is a business decision they made. Inovelli themselves are moving on from this crowd for a reason. If you look across the landscape, outside of a few companies most have abandoned prosumers and hobbyists. People here just don't realize it yet

[bpwwer]

I have two houses full of Insteon.  In fact, I believe I still have some of the original Icon line of switches.  I've been using Insteon before there was an ISY.

I'm excited about Lutron RA3.  I started looking into it about a month ago.  I've taken the RA2 and RA3 training classes and have played around with their programming software.  Yesterday, I placed an order for a couple of their automated shades which will be my first actual experience with Lutron products.  My next step is to replace the Insteon in one small room with Lutron RA3 to test it out.  This room has a failed Insteon switch that needs to be replaced anyway.

There are some things I've done with Insteon that I don't think I can replicate with Lutron RA3.  But the ISY makes it practical run both systems and allow them to interact giving me time to figure out what I really want to do for those cases.

[upstatemike]

52 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Is Insteon falling into this category?

Just remember "moved on" is just code for "settled for less". When companis make you  "move on" it is to benefit themselves with regards to increased profit or reduced support headaches. It rarely turns out to benefit the existing investment of individuals or consumers in general. 

My cassette mix tapes still work fine and provide the exact versions of the exact songs I want to hear in the exact order I want to hear them. I cannot replicate that with any streaming service without dealing with tracks in the playlist suddenly becoming unavailable or getting substituted by newer versions of the song that I don't care for. And I won'r even get started about paying a monthly subscription to buy the same songs over and over. These problems are not offset by any new feature or benefit that I care about so "moving on" is not a good thing.

So likewise I approach any opportunity to "move on" in home automation with a healthy skepticism and demand that it actually provide something new that I want without impacting any feature that I already have. Doing a subset of what I do now and simply doing it differently does not qualify as being better.

[upstatemike]

5 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

I have two houses full of Insteon.  In fact, I believe I still have some of the original Icon line of switches.  I've been using Insteon before there was an ISY.

I'm excited about Lutron RA3.  I started looking into it about a month ago.  I've taken the RA2 and RA3 training classes and have played around with their programming software.  Yesterday, I placed an order for a couple of their automated shades which will be my first actual experience with Lutron products.  My next step is to replace the Insteon in one small room with Lutron RA3 to test it out.  This room has a failed Insteon switch that needs to be replaced anyway.

There are some things I've done with Insteon that I don't think I can replicate with Lutron RA3.  But the ISY makes it practical run both systems and allow them to interact giving me time to figure out what I really want to do for those cases.

I'm probably going to give RA3 a try sometime next year as well. By far the most common situation I run into is needing to convert an old pull chan ceiling fixture to be able to use a switch. Because of the old construction and the nature of old fixtures there is no way to run a wire for a switch or to find space for a wired relay module in the fixture or box so you have to use a battery switch and screw-in module or smart bulb.

It would be ideal to use a Sunnata style Pico switch with an RA3 screw-in module to address these situations.

[Roland Alden]

9 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

...My cassette mix tapes still work fine and provide the exact versions of the exact songs I want to hear ...

This is not a good analogy. Insteon devices have a ultra-high failure rate, many (most) are no longer available. In my case I MUST switch to another solution. Soon enough the presence of Insteon devices in a home will be considered a "defect" that must be disclosed to the buyer. 

[upstatemike]

12 minutes ago, Roland Alden said:

This is not a good analogy. Insteon devices have a ultra-high failure rate, many (most) are no longer available. In my case I MUST switch to another solution. Soon enough the presence of Insteon devices in a home will be considered a "defect" that must be disclosed to the buyer. 

That is actually a good point and and might become true for a number of automation technologies. I'm sure it would be no fun to have a home buyer demand that all of the automated switches be removed from the house before they will proceed with the closing... tomorrow.

[bpwwer]

45 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I'm probably going to give RA3 a try sometime next year as well. By far the most common situation I run into is needing to convert an old pull chan ceiling fixture to be able to use a switch. Because of the old construction and the nature of old fixtures there is no way to run a wire for a switch or to find space for a wired relay module in the fixture or box so you have to use a battery switch and screw-in module or smart bulb.

It would be ideal to use a Sunnata style Pico switch with an RA3 screw-in module to address these situations.

I installed a bunch of recessed lighting in rooms and used the Insteon micro on/off modules in the cans to control them via remote switches.  I didn't see anything like the micro on/off modules from Lutron, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.   Worse case, I have to run new wire to a switch location for each set of lights.

[lilyoyo1]

58 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Just remember "moved on" is just code for "settled for less". When companis make you  "move on" it is to benefit themselves with regards to increased profit or reduced support headaches. It rarely turns out to benefit the existing investment of individuals or consumers in general. 

My cassette mix tapes still work fine and provide the exact versions of the exact songs I want to hear in the exact order I want to hear them. I cannot replicate that with any streaming service without dealing with tracks in the playlist suddenly becoming unavailable or getting substituted by newer versions of the song that I don't care for. And I won'r even get started about paying a monthly subscription to buy the same songs over and over. These problems are not offset by any new feature or benefit that I care about so "moving on" is not a good thing.

So likewise I approach any opportunity to "move on" in home automation with a healthy skepticism and demand that it actually provide something new that I want without impacting any feature that I already have. Doing a subset of what I do now and simply doing it differently does not qualify as being better.

Of course that's what companies are doing. There's absolutely zero benefit to catering to advanced users. I was once the same way with my company. I wanted to be that one stop shop that did everything and give the world. While it worked for me for a time, my ROI was extremely low. The amount of money I made for the time and effort put in wasn't worth it. Once I simplified things (going to higher end stuff helped as well), not only did I gain more clients, my income went up exponentially. 

The same applies to manufacturers of devices. The can spend heavily on R&D trying to keep advanced users happy only to sell a few products they develop, or they can focus on easy to make low cost devices.

Take insteon. People harp on how much they used to have not realizing a lot of those products sat around the warehouse for years. There were times they'd have to write stuff off and remake just so the factory would still make the products for them at a certain price. 

Your analogy about tapes says alot and goes to why you have a hard time seeing/understanding the movement of companies catering to the masses.

Most people don't want a large collection of tapes sitting around. They can store thousands of songs in the cloud (or hard drive) for consumption whenever and wherever they are. Listening to a song in order like a tape does is irrelevant as the ability to hear a variety of music easily makes more sense. Not only that, playlists still allows them to get the benefits that you talk about. All without spending countless hours recording and dubbing onto a tape, having to take up space for storage or dig through a storage cabinet looking for that 1 song you're in the mood for. 

The same applies for the masses. Low cost entry into this world without having to invest countless hours simply to learn a system and what devices can do. In half the time it takes to set up polisy and set a timer to turn a light on/off, a person can install a switch, connect to its app and be up and running with Alexa (and set a schedule).

 

[lilyoyo1]

15 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

I installed a bunch of recessed lighting in rooms and used the Insteon micro on/off modules in the cans to control them via remote switches.  I didn't see anything like the micro on/off modules from Lutron, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.   Worse case, I have to run new wire to a switch location for each set of lights.

Ra2 select has inline modules that can potentially be used. They aren't small like micro modules though

[upstatemike]

21 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

I installed a bunch of recessed lighting in rooms and used the Insteon micro on/off modules in the cans to control them via remote switches.  I didn't see anything like the micro on/off modules from Lutron, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.   Worse case, I have to run new wire to a switch location for each set of lights.

Even the micro on/off modules are too large for old style fixtures and boxes. Running new wire in a lathe and plaster wall with inconsistent wall cavities is pretty much impossible. Screw-in modules are a neccessity for any protocol that does not include smart bulbs.

[upstatemike]

15 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Of course that's what companies are doing. There's absolutely zero benefit to catering to advanced users. I was once the same way with my company. I wanted to be that one stop shop that did everything and give the world. While it worked for me for a time, my ROI was extremely low. The amount of money I made for the time and effort put in wasn't worth it. Once I simplified things (going to higher end stuff helped as well), not only did I gain more clients, my income went up exponentially. 

The same applies to manufacturers of devices. The can spend heavily on R&D trying to keep advanced users happy only to sell a few products they develop, or they can focus on easy to make low cost devices.

Take insteon. People harp on how much they used to have not realizing a lot of those products sat around the warehouse for years. There were times they'd have to write stuff off and remake just so the factory would still make the products for them at a certain price. 

Your analogy about tapes says alot and goes to why you have a hard time seeing/understanding the movement of companies catering to the masses.

Most people don't want a large collection of tapes sitting around. They can store thousands of songs in the cloud (or hard drive) for consumption whenever and wherever they are. Listening to a song in order like a tape does is irrelevant as the ability to hear a variety of music easily makes more sense. Not only that, playlists still allows them to get the benefits that you talk about. All without spending countless hours recording and dubbing onto a tape, having to take up space for storage or dig through a storage cabinet looking for that 1 song you're in the mood for. 

The same applies for the masses. Low cost entry into this world without having to invest countless hours simply to learn a system and what devices can do. In half the time it takes to set up polisy and set a timer to turn a light on/off, a person can install a switch, connect to its app and be up and running with Alexa (and set a schedule).

 

The need for companies to make money does not translate to a need for me to buy products that do less than the products I already own do. There has to be some incentive for me to "move on" otherwise I will stick with what I have (as Microsoft is learning in trying to get people to upgrade to newer versions of Windows that don't offer any new benefits).

Following the masses like a Lemming is most likely going to end with you falling off a cliff. 

The ability to access a ridiculous number of music tracks is pointless if most of what you are paying for is garbage. It just adds insult to injury if the few things you do like are constantly being messed with or suddenly made unavailable.  

The order songs are played in matters just as much as the song selection. Just playing a bunch of tunes in some random order is definitely a huge step backward in the quality of any music listening experience.

If you don't have space in your home to store a few cassettes you have more serious problems than worrying about what music format to use.

Not sure I understand your point about low cost of entry... I thought you were promoting Lutron?

[lilyoyo1]

26 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

The need for companies to make money does not translate to a need for me to buy products that do less than the products I already own do. There has to be some incentive for me to "move on" otherwise I will stick with what I have (as Microsoft is learning in trying to get people to upgrade to newer versions of Windows that don't offer any new benefits).

Following the masses like a Lemming is most likely going to end with you falling off a cliff. 

The ability to access a ridiculous number of music tracks is pointless if most of what you are paying for is garbage. It just adds insult to injury if the few things you do like are constantly being messed with or suddenly made unavailable.  

The order songs are played in matters just as much as the song selection. Just playing a bunch of tunes in some random order is definitely a huge step backward in the quality of any music listening experience.

If you don't have space in your home to store a few cassettes you have more serious problems than worrying about what music format to use.

Not sure I understand your point about low cost of entry... I thought you were promoting Lutron?

I'm speaking specifically to the masses not my client base I go for when I talk about low cost of entry. Radio Ra is somewhat geared towards the masses with access but caters to those with the finances and desire to have a high quality system. 

You keep talking about your needs- but you aren't the customer base these companies are going for. Whether it's tapes vs streaming or prosumers/techie vs mass use, you're getting left behind scrounging to find the things you desire all while everything else is changing around you. But, since you're so caught up in the old ways, you can't see how the new not only replicates what you currently have but makes it infinitely better. 

[upstatemike]

Not so much caught up in the old ways as taking the time to understand what is better about the new ones (and what is just marketing BS). Terms like "everyone else" is a big red flag to me as corporations try to define what "everyone else" should want rather than listening to what they are actually asking for. They hope to control demand rather than respond to it. Apple says "everyone" should want their Home Automation tied to an iPhone and now Homekit is little more than a footnote in the HA universe. Insteon says "everyone" prefers a closed ecosystem and sabotages most any kind of partnership leading to their current state. Countless people claim that needing an HA hub is somehow "bad" or cloud services are better than local infrastructure. Just because a company or a majority (mob) want something to be true doesn't meaan it is and just because I don't buy into the marketing hype or rush to embrace every passing trend doesn't mean I can't make technology work the way I want it to... my solutions just might not align with conventional opinions. And that is OK too.

Edited December 18, 2021 by upstatemike

[Mustang65]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Most people don't want a large collection of tapes sitting around. They can store thousands of songs in the cloud (or hard drive) for consumption whenever and wherever they are. Listening to a song in order like a tape does is irrelevant as the ability to hear a variety of music easily makes more sense.

 

 

Ahhhh, the sound of the needle gliding through the vinyl and the associated unfiltered noises that accompany it. Well, the only vinyl I have is the original of Gene Autry singing Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer on a 78, but no turntable to play it on. 

[lilyoyo1]

18 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Ahhhh, the sound of the needle gliding through the vinyl and the associated unfiltered noises that accompany it. Well, the only vinyl I have is the original of Gene Autry singing Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer on a 78, but no turntable to play it on. 

I still have vinyl and use it from time to time. I prefer it's sound over now. I'm not surprised at that. CD sales have been dropping faster than DVD/blu-ray/4k media since streaming has taken over

[LarryCRetired]

I remember using my parents 78's as a frisbee long before they were sold as toys.   Wished I had them now

[upstatemike]

The first thing I ever modified was my parents old Emerson tube record console. It plays 78s and I still have it and their records.

[ase]

Wow talk about evolution of conversation. 

At the end of the day I think it comes down to this. Insteon from a technical and simplicity of use perspective, was second to none. Due to corporate level decisions, they have become difficult to deal with and have made decisions that are likely to lead to their demise. They have become non-responsive. Due to this lack of response we are unaware of their status and can only speculate about what is going on. They could be collapsing, they could be working on rebranding(Nokia), or they could be doing nothing at all and it really is just the chip shortage causing availability issues.

I think the collapse talk comes down to both hope and dread. Hope that someone will buy them and turn it around. Dread that the investment made in their infrastructure will be a costly mistake.

Personally I am building out automation at my in-laws home this winter. I am still building out on insteon for them because this is where I started them out years ago and they understand how to use it. If insteon folds I will replace items as needed with new items they are comfortable using. 

As for my home I am full insteon and have had very few things quite working. If/when something does break, I will simply pick a device to replace it, insteon, Z-wave or something else that polisy can control. That is the beauty of isy and polisy. I can choose to build things out the way it works for me. 

Personally I think Insteon is trying to follow the pack and rebrand with the Nokia name. I know when Menards did team up insteon to offer the full line in stores, it was an absolute disaster. Customers were returning damn near every unit sold. It was great for me as I could buy the returned units dirt cheap. However, the problem was people just didn't understand how to install it and make it work, the process was just too technical for the weekend warriors. Then the home automation "revolution" hit and insteon wasn't on physical store shelves. They got lost in the fray of popular brands. If you know GE and it says it works with Samsung SmartThings and hey you have that, you buy the GE item. From the customer forward standpoint Insteon only worked with Insteon and most customers don't know the Insteon brand let alone trust it. Nokia is a known and trusted customer facing brand.

Insteon may just be about to do the one thing that is bound to piss everyone of us off, become a consumer grade, easy to use, proprietary based brand. Just another on shelf, end user brand in a sea of them. Personally that is where I think we are heading. The real question is just how far is Richmond Capital willing to go with it.

Edited December 19, 2021 by ase

[lilyoyo1]

11 hours ago, ase said:

 

Insteon may just be about to do the one thing that is bound to piss everyone of us off, become a consumer grade, easy to use, proprietary based brand. Just another on shelf, end user brand in a sea of them. Personally that is where I think we are heading. The real question is just how far is Richmond Capital willing to go with it.

Everything is headed this way. Power users will have to scrounge around even more than they already do to make things fit

[sjenkins]

I have two houses full of Insteon.  In fact, I believe I still have some of the original Icon line of switches.  I've been using Insteon before there was an ISY.
I'm excited about Lutron RA3.  I started looking into it about a month ago.  I've taken the RA2 and RA3 training classes and have played around with their programming software.  Yesterday, I placed an order for a couple of their automated shades which will be my first actual experience with Lutron products.  My next step is to replace the Insteon in one small room with Lutron RA3 to test it out.  This room has a failed Insteon switch that needs to be replaced anyway.
There are some things I've done with Insteon that I don't think I can replicate with Lutron RA3.  But the ISY makes it practical run both systems and allow them to interact giving me time to figure out what I really want to do for those cases.

I have not dug into Ra2 / Ra3 but have likely a hundred Insteon. What is the path from these Lurton devices to the ISY? Through a node server or direct or through another portal then node server to ISY?


SeJ