Insteon Inventory

[lilyoyo1]

13 minutes ago, sjenkins said:

I have not dug into Ra2 / Ra3 but have likely a hundred Insteon. What is the path from these Lurton devices to the ISY? Through a node server or direct or through another portal then node server to ISY?


SeJ

It would need to be through a nodeserver

[bpwwer]

11 minutes ago, sjenkins said:

I have not dug into Ra2 / Ra3 but have likely a hundred Insteon. What is the path from these Lurton devices to the ISY? Through a node server or direct or through another portal then node server to ISY?

SeJ

To integrate with the ISY, it is through a node server.  With the PG3 versions, the goal is to make the Lutron device nodes behave very similar to the built-in nodes for Insteon and Z-Wave.

With PG2, there is node server support for Ra2, Ra2Select, CasetaPro, and Caseta available now.

[sjenkins]

22 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

To integrate with the ISY, it is through a node server.  With the PG3 versions, the goal is to make the Lutron device nodes behave very similar to the built-in nodes for Insteon and Z-Wave.

With PG2, there is node server support for Ra2, Ra2Select, CasetaPro, and Caseta available now.

@bpwwer,

Thanks so much, just saw the PG2 node servers.  Went to the Lutron site and signed up for their training through a myLuttron account.  I'm a EE who hates that kind of training but am pretty interested in getting my feet wet.  Putting in a new basement right now so may look at a couple of these dimmers to get going, as I really need a plan to move from the Insteon.  Is the node server forum the best place to go for us or is there a central forum for these products?

[upstatemike]

18 minutes ago, sjenkins said:

@bpwwer,

Thanks so much, just saw the PG2 node servers.  Went to the Lutron site and signed up for their training through a myLuttron account.  I'm a EE who hates that kind of training but am pretty interested in getting my feet wet.  Putting in a new basement right now so may look at a couple of these dimmers to get going, as I really need a plan to move from the Insteon.  Is the node server forum the best place to go for us or is there a central forum for these products?

You really should check the training before you make any long term plans about RA3. Unlike RA2, RA3 is a 2.4G Mesh system with a maxim radius of 75 feet (ie 150 foot diameter... shorter than the length of my house). You will need to do a hybrid of RA2 and RA3 to cover a larger area. Also note that there are not RA3 equivalents for all existing RA2 devices so you will be doing a hybrid system for that reason as well.

[sjenkins]

You really should check the training before you make any long term plans about RA3. Unlike RA2, RA3 is a 2.4G Mesh system with a maxim radius of 75 feet (ie 150 foot diameter... shorter than the length of my house). You will need to do a hybrid of RA2 and RA3 to cover a larger area. Also note that there are not RA3 equivalents for all existing RA2 devices so you will be doing a hybrid system for that reason as well.

This is why I like these forums. Like many others Insteon has served me well even if their business model sucks. I’ll look at the RA2 as well.


SeJ

[Roland Alden]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

...Unlike RA2, RA3 is a 2.4G Mesh system with a maxim radius of 75 feet (ie 150 foot diameter... shorter than the length of my house). ...

If it's a "mesh" system doesn't that mean the 75 feet applies to the maximum distance to the nearest node? I would think that a large house with a large number of devices would experience excellent coverage unless the mesh protocol sucks.

[upstatemike]

10 minutes ago, Roland Alden said:

If it's a "mesh" system doesn't that mean the 75 feet applies to the maximum distance to the nearest node? I would think that a large house with a large number of devices would experience excellent coverage unless the mesh protocol sucks.

No the design requires all devices to be within 75 feet of the hub and within 25 feet of at least 2 other devices. Both of thes have to be met (though I assume the second one is waived if you only have 1 device).

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

You really should check the training before you make any long term plans about RA3. Unlike RA2, RA3 is a 2.4G Mesh system with a maxim radius of 75 feet (ie 150 foot diameter... shorter than the length of my house). You will need to do a hybrid of RA2 and RA3 to cover a larger area. Also note that there are not RA3 equivalents for all existing RA2 devices so you will be doing a hybrid system for that reason as well.

No.

Radio Ra 3 is a dual system.  It will use the traditional ClearConnect protocol used by all previous systems which is a direct communication protocol.  This has a conservative limitation of 30 feet from main/aux repeater to the device.  I say conservative because greater distances do work but then you're beyond the bounds of "validated" configuration for 100% reliability.  This means that Ra 3 will support most of the devices from Radio Ra 2.

Ra 3 is adding the newer protocol version which is a 2.4Ghz based protocol (Zigbee Pro) with proprieatary ZCL for the new devices and I'm hoping to bring Ketra support to Ra 3 (hopeful/wish).

[upstatemike]

5 minutes ago, simplextech said:

No.

Radio Ra 3 is a dual system.  It will use the traditional ClearConnect protocol used by all previous systems which is a direct communication protocol.  This has a conservative limitation of 30 feet from main/aux repeater to the device.  I say conservative because greater distances do work but then you're beyond the bounds of "validated" configuration for 100% reliability.  This means that Ra 3 will support most of the devices from Radio Ra 2.

Ra 3 is adding the newer protocol version which is a 2.4Ghz based protocol (Zigbee Pro) with proprieatary ZCL for the new devices and I'm hoping to bring Ketra support to Ra 3 (hopeful/wish).

I said hybrid because that is the term Lutron used. Dual System is a distinction without a difference. If you use anything other than a switch, dimmer or keypad then it will be RA2 because that is the full spectrum of RA3 devices. If you want to extend beyond a radius of 75 feet it will be RA2 because there is no provision to extend the mesh beyond that limit.

Edited December 19, 2021 by upstatemike

[simplextech]

Just now, upstatemike said:

I said hybrid because that is the term Lutron used. Dual system is a distinction wothout a difference. If you use anything other than a switch, dimmer or keypad then it will be RA2 because that is the full spectrum of RA3 devices. If you want to extend beyond a radius of 75 feet it will be RA2 because there is no provision to extend the mesh beyond that limit.

To extend a Lutron Radio Ra 2 system you use Aux repeaters.  This holds true with Ra 3.  There is the main repeater and then Aux repeaters for the traditional ClearConnect devices.  

The newer ClearConnect-X stuff is a mesh.  The switches, dimmers will extend the mesh.  What is yet unknown or I've not see yet is whether or not the Aux repeaters will also help to extend this mesh network.  It would be insane for the Aux repeaters to NOT extend the mesh but sometimes Lutron does wonky design things to limit system design size.

[Roland Alden]

9 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

No the design requires all devices to be within 75 feet of the hub and within 25 feet of at least 2 other devices. Both of thes have to be met (though I assume the second one is waived if you only have 1 device).

Well that doesn't meet the most generous definition of a "mesh" network. At least they have an assortment of "repeaters". RR-AUX-REP-WH, L-REPPRO-BL

[upstatemike]

8 minutes ago, simplextech said:

To extend a Lutron Radio Ra 2 system you use Aux repeaters.  This holds true with Ra 3.  There is the main repeater and then Aux repeaters for the traditional ClearConnect devices.  

The newer ClearConnect-X stuff is a mesh.  The switches, dimmers will extend the mesh.  What is yet unknown or I've not see yet is whether or not the Aux repeaters will also help to extend this mesh network.  It would be insane for the Aux repeaters to NOT extend the mesh but sometimes Lutron does wonky design things to limit system design size.

From what I can see they have not changed the Aux Repeaters or any other piece of RA2 gear. The RA3 hub also acts as the Main for RA2 but from there the two networks are completely separate. All the old 60/30 rules for RA2 stay the same. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by upstatemike

[Roland Alden]

6 minutes ago, simplextech said:

...The newer ClearConnect-X stuff is a mesh. The switches, dimmers will extend the mesh. ...

That sounds more promising. Unsurprisingly at the Lutron website I get this:

"Your search for ClearConnect-X did not return any results."

I hope they have not embraced SmartLabs' marketing strategy.

[upstatemike]

4 minutes ago, Roland Alden said:

Well that doesn't meet the most generous definition of a "mesh" network. At least they have an assortment of "repeaters". RR-AUX-REP-WH, L-REPPRO-BL

Those are RA2 repeaters. They do not extend the RA3 mesh.

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, upstatemike said:

Those are RA2 repeaters. They do not extend the RA3 mesh.

Specifically the first one he listed is a Radio Ra 2 repeater.  The second one listed is a RA2 Select repeater.  Radio RA 2 and RA2 Select repeaters are not inter changeable.

[lilyoyo1]

26 minutes ago, simplextech said:

No.

Radio Ra 3 is a dual system.  It will use the traditional ClearConnect protocol used by all previous systems which is a direct communication protocol.  This has a conservative limitation of 30 feet from main/aux repeater to the device.  I say conservative because greater distances do work but then you're beyond the bounds of "validated" configuration for 100% reliability.  This means that Ra 3 will support most of the devices from Radio Ra 2.

Ra 3 is adding the newer protocol version which is a 2.4Ghz based protocol (Zigbee Pro) with proprieatary ZCL for the new devices and I'm hoping to bring Ketra support to Ra 3 (hopeful/wish).

You and me both. That's not happening though...at least no time soon according to Snapav. Ketra is still homeworks only. I'd drop hue for ketra in a heartbeat

[simplextech]

7 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

From what I can see they have not changed the Aux Repeaters or any other piece of RA2 gear. The RA3 hub also acts as the primary for RA2 but from there the two networks are completely separate. All the old 60/30 rules for RA2 stay the same. 

The existing Radio RA 2 aux repeaters will still work the Ra 3.  Ra 3 is introducing their own ability to use additional repeaters.  This is coming.  

Of course the two networks are completely separate.  They run on vastly different frequencies and completely different chips.  

[lilyoyo1]

8 minutes ago, Roland Alden said:

That sounds more promising. Unsurprisingly at the Lutron website I get this:

"Your search for ClearConnect-X did not return any results."

I hope they have not embraced SmartLabs' marketing strategy.

In their defense, they aren't really here for consumers. It's for dealers and those who take the time to do their training. 

[simplextech]

Just now, lilyoyo1 said:

You and me both. That's not happening though...at least no time soon according to Snapav. Ketra is still homeworks only. I'd drop hue for ketra in a heartbeat

I'm still hopeful.  I know it's a really long shot.

[upstatemike]

2 minutes ago, simplextech said:

The existing Radio RA 2 aux repeaters will still work the Ra 3.  Ra 3 is introducing their own ability to use additional repeaters.  This is coming.  

Of course the two networks are completely separate.  They run on vastly different frequencies and completely different chips.  

Good to hear. I saw that RA3 keypads that control loads were coming but I didn't see anything about the RA3 aux repeaters. 

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, simplextech said:

I'm still hopeful.  I know it's a really long shot.

I'll be crossing my fingers as well. I don't see why not since everything else they use is the same. Hell, come out with a cheaper version. They can keep the light sensors for the ketra line. I just want the colors

[simplextech]

12 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'll be crossing my fingers as well. I don't see why not since everything else they use is the same. Hell, come out with a cheaper version. They can keep the light sensors for the ketra line. I just want the colors

I know right... colors.... pretty

My guess... pure speculation.... I think Lutron is working back to a 3-tier ecosystem... and going to eliminate one of the lower end lines.... I'm undecided if I think they're going to kill off RA2 Select or Caseta... I'm leaning towards RA2 Select getting the axe.

[lilyoyo1]

34 minutes ago, simplextech said:

I know right... colors.... pretty

My guess... pure speculation.... I think Lutron is working back to a 3-tier ecosystem... and going to eliminate one of the lower end lines.... I'm undecided if I think they're going to kill off RA2 Select or Caseta... I'm leaning towards RA2 Select getting the axe.

I think they'll kill off Ra2 and Select. Select will be first to go but Ra2 will be killed once Ra3 gets a full line up. I dont see the point in having 2 lines that do the same thing.

[simplextech]

7 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I think they'll kill off Ra2 and Select. Select will be first to go but Ra2 will be killed once Ra3 gets a full line up. I dont see the point in having 2 lines that do the same thing.

It's expected that Ra 2 will go away as it's being replaced by Ra 3.  

EDIT:  Benefit... Radio Ra 2 main repeaters should turn up cheap on the market soon from people upgrading  LOL!!!!

Maybe they'll keep RA2 Select or perhaps converge with Caseta with the RA3 Select?  It's just been very odd to have two Lutron systems geared towards consumers and now that the occupancy sensor is supported in Caseta the only thing special between RA2 Select and Caseta is that RA2 Select devices are compatible with full Radio Ra 2....

I dunno... can speculate and make all kinds of wild guesses...

 

[upstatemike]

If I was Lutron I would drop Select and immediately discontinue the RA2 main repeater so nobody can sell "new" legacy RA2 installations but they can sell RA2 installations based on the RA3 hub and RA2 Aux Repeaters until RA2 Maestro stock is depleted. Then modify RA Aux Repeater firmware so Caseta can talk to it. 

Now 2.4G is Pro and 371-374M is consumer. Pro can incorporate anyting from consumer into a Pro installation if they need to but consumers do not have access to the RA3 Hub so they are limited to the constraints of the Caseta hubs and cannot intrude into Pro markets.

Less hardware to support but still protecting the line between consumer and Pro.