Insteon 2477S v.45 beeping on all traffic

[tbuchber]

I have one and only one Insteon 2477S installed. It beeps when it senses Insteon traffic. In the ISY 994 Admin Console , it said (2477S) Dual Band SwitchLinc On/Off Switch v.45. I did link it to the ISY.

I can turn it on and off. However, I cannot find a way to turn off the beeping. I have done a factory reset (using the air gap, waiiting 5-10 seconds, pushing in and holding, I get the two confirmation beeps) and that did not help. The Admin Console  provides settings for On, Beep, and Backlight. For actions I have On, Off, Fast Off, Fast On, Query, Beep, and Write Changes.

Thoughts?

[Geddy]

@tbuchber Welcome to the Forums.

First, please let us know what Firmware and User Interface you're using.
That is found in the Admin Console under Help -> About. It should look similar to this:

Make sure first of all that they match! If they don't then make sure you're getting the ISY Launcher. It will take the guess work out of matching UI/FW for you.

We have seen other posts about this being an issue and typically a factory reset and restore in the ISY will resolve the issue. Since the "factory default" is to NOT beep then somewhere either the ISY set it to beep or something just went a little wonky in setup. While some have not been cursed with phantom links from the factory it's always key to remove existing links when adding to the ISY, and ultimately if something isn't working as expected the factory reset typically helps.

CLOSE ADMIN CONSOLE before you attempt a factory reset (just as a safe step to not be active in the system)

KEY POINT - If the device is in a folder right click on it and select "Remove from Folder". 

Do NOT delete the device from the ISY. Leave it in the ISY, but make sure it is not nested in a folder.

Make sure to follow the directions exactly. It's typical for some users to not HOLD the set button until the long beep stops. From the manual the process for factory reset is below:

After device was factory reset open the Admin Console. Right click on the device (should be in the root of the device tree) and select "Restore Device". 

Try the reset again and report back.

 

[tbuchber]

Firmware: Insteon_UD994 v.5.3.4 (2021-07-07-14:46:02)

UI: Insteon_UD994 v.5.3.4 (2021-07-07-14:46:02)

I did the following:

1. In the Admin Console, I removed the 2477S from folder it was in.

2. I closed the Admin Console.

3. I air-gaped the 2477S for about 15 seconds.

4. I pushed in the set button and held it in until a few seconds after the long beep ended. The 2477S double-beeped and turned on the load.

5. I turned on the dimmer switch that is right next to it and the 2477S emitted two (?) short beeps. Note that at this point, I have not restored the 2477S in the Admin Console. And I know it is the 2477S that is beeping because if I air-gap it, then no beeping occurs when I interact with other Insteon devices.

6. I opened the Admin Console.

7. I used Restore Device.

8. I turned on the dimmer switch that is right next to it, the 2477S emits two (?) short beeps.

[kzboray]

@tbuchber It sounds like you've done everything right to trouble shoot this issue. Sometimes the internal HW of a particular Insteon device can become damaged causing weird behavior. I would suggest you try replacing the switch with a new one. It doesn't happen often, but I've seen others occasionally report errant behavior that can't be fixed with even the air-gap reset.

Also if it beeps on all Insteon traffic. It's a great test tool for active Insteon traffic. It won't tell you much, but at least you know when something sends Insteon traffic and if the Insteon network is reaching the location you are testing. I'd keep it around network trouble shooting.

[kzboray]

@tbuchber

Also if it's the only device being managed by the ISY and you want to eliminate the ISY, you could also do a factory reset on the ISY as well. To be safe please make a backup of your ISY first.

Factory reset.

1. Use a sharp object to push in the Reset Button till the RX, TX, Mem, Error lights start blinking (every second)
2. Hold for at least 30 seconds until all of the the RX, TX, Mem, Error lights turn off and Mem light starts flashing quickly
3. Release and wait for system reboot (reboot is complete when Mem light stops flashing)

[tbuchber]

Thanks for the info. Here is what I tried next.

1. Removed the power from my ISY.

2. Unplugged the Insteon PLM Serial Modem Interface from the wall outlet.

3. Did a factory reset on the 2477S.

4. Tested and still beeping on Insteon traffic.

I do have one other 2477S (a new one) that I can swap out with. The 2477S that is currently installed and beeping, I believe has been exhibiting this behavior (beeping on Insteon traffic) since I installed it.

The beeping mainly bugs my wife. This 2477S is in our master bathroom, in the toilet area for the exhaust fan.

[stillwater]

I have had what sounds like the same problem for maybe a year.  I first noticed it some years after original installation. 

  Factory reset (followed by restore device with testing in between)  didn't make a difference.   Replacing the 2477s with another one of the same vintage (probably 2014 or 2015) , followed by factory reset, also didn't help.  

However I have another 2477s   (probably also bought from Smarthome in 2014 or 2015 and also installed in 2015 )  in almost the exact same configuration in a powder room that is completely quiet.  It switches the same model panasonic fan and the same electrician wired both -- but conceivably it could be something about the fan.   I do not think this is the actual device beep but I could be wrong.   With a stethoscope it sounds more like a buzzing/fritzing sound than a beep.  It does occur whenever there is insteon traffic, not just traffic specifically for or from that device. Maybe there is a coil in the 2477d that is in contact with the case, or something like that.   The switch is in a toilet room that is very small and for a long time I thought the noise was coming from the fan and not the switch, but it based on the stethoscope it does seem to be coming from the switch.  

If I were you I would indeed try replacing the 2477s and see if that makes a difference.  I'd be very interested in what you find out. 

I tried to query the insteon engine for each of the two  currently installed 2477s from the Admin Console to see if they are the same type of device -- I believe that in previous years this would give some sort of result on the screen.   The query runs (there is a brief blue rectangle and a progress bar that goes by too quickly to read) but I don't see any results on the screen.   I have 5.3.4 firmware and 5.3.4 UI.  

 

 

[stillwater]

 PS the noise from this switch  is one reason I disabled the 3 am factory query all program. 

Both of the toilet fan switches are v.43 based on the banner in the administrative console.  

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by stillwater
added info on 2477s versions per UI

[stillwater]

Further information --  Not sure I am much closer to solving the mystery but here is additional info:

I located the v.43 switchlinc (for toilet fan)  that I removed from the system more or less a year ago.  This was indeed made toward the end of 2014.  I hooked it up to a test harness to give it power (no load) and added it to the ISY (after yet another factory reset).   With a stethoscope on the case I can hear a very quiet buzz on all insteon traffic through the case.  Now this is located in a different place from when it was installed -- it may be on a different  phase electrically and also in a different position re RF (in the toilet room the switchlinc has a 2477D right next to it, so that may be blasting RF and powerline signals right at it. 

I also have a new-in-box v.45 switchlinc manufactured in 2018.  I did the same test with it and it makes the same buzzing --though even fainter.   Neither seem anywhere near as loud as when the v43 switchlinc was installed in the wallbox. (or the current one).   This may be because of mechanical resonance to the wall box or wires jammed into the box.  But it seems a greater difference than I would have expected based on that.  

Based on the noise the switchlinc makes when switched remotely by ISY, it has a relay to control the load -- so I doubt the fact that it was connected (like yours) to an exhaust fan has anything to do with it.  (If it did it could only be by feeding RF back into the case? )

Also looking at the circuit board through the clear case there does not seem to be much that could be affecting the resonances... though conceivably it might help to put some foam tape or some other sound deadening material on the case, and not fully tightening the screws attaching it to the wall box, or the screws attaching the faceplate to the device.

Of course the less insteon traffic there is on your system the less you will notice the noises.. So reducing retries by fixing Comms problems and disabllng the Query All program (or rescheduling it for when you are unlikely to be in earshot of the switchlinc) may help if you can't eliminate the noise.  

 

 

[gzahar]

2 hours ago, tbuchber said:

I do have one other 2477S (a new one) that I can swap out with. The 2477S that is currently installed and beeping, I believe has been exhibiting this behavior (beeping on Insteon traffic) since I installed it.

If it turns out to be a bad device (which it sounds like), I would keep it as as spare.  As hard as they are to get now, you could always cut the leads to the piezo "beeper" if you had to.

[stillwater]

I do not believe that it's the piezo "beeper" that's making the noise, though this is possible.   To be sure it would be good to know where it is on the pc board)  I could look into removing or cutting into the case and feeling around with an insulated probe to see find the source of the vibration. 

Also more careful listening shows the one installed in the powder room that I thought was completely quiet actually makes more-or-less the same noise as the new-in-box v.45 2477S.   

[gzahar]

4 minutes ago, stillwater said:

To be sure it would be good to know where it is on the pc board) 

It is stuck to the clear plastic case with two wires running to the PCB.  You can't miss it.

[stillwater]

Thanks!  

[stillwater]

I took (what I thought was -- see "Partial Retraction", below) the previously offending (and thus replaced) 2477S apart.  Without the case on it is pretty quiet but makes a buzz that is audible, especially with the stethoscope.  I was able to confirm that there was no noise or vibration from the piezo electric noisemaker -- it's something on the main circuit board (not the RF daughter board).    Probably it's a surface-mounted ceramic capacitor singing -- though I didn't look closely. 

Here is a reference about such "singing" capacitors and what can be done about them in designing printed circuit boards. (Unfortunately not much help for us) 

https://sound-au.com/pdf/acoustic_noise_MLCCs_TI.pdf

Possibly some goo like the black rubber sold in hardware stores as an alternative to electrical tape would reduce the vibration at the board, or taking steps to decouple it acoustically from the wall box and the wall would help.  

Anyway it certainly has nothing to do with the ISY. 

Of course whether this is the same as the seemingly louder noise from the currently installed one I won't know for certain until I replace it with the the newer one. The one mounted in the wall box makes a more rounded tone but I think that is because of various things being vibrated and not the source noise at the device.     

Edit:  Partial Retraction.   I see from previous notes that I likely replaced the 2477S a little over a year ago for a completely different reason -- related to problems with the 2477s communications that were ultimately resolved by  factory resetting the 2477D in the same box.  So I really won't know much for certain about what is causing the noise in the currently installed 2447S until I replace it and test it on the bench.   However the similarity of the sounds via the sterhoscope makes me pretty confident that the problem will be a louder version of the sounds I have heard in the other switchlincs. I will report back. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by stillwater
Edit added "Partial Retraction"

[stillwater]

Conclusion of my saga, which may or may not be relevant to @tbuchber.

I removed the 2477S that was making audible buzzing/ringing on insteon traffic.   On the test bench in the basement it was maybe a  little louder than the other v.43 2477S I had and quite a bit louder than the v.45 2477S but it was indeed the same noise -- coming from the main board and not the beeper.  Possibly I had overtightened the screws on mounting and that or something else distorted the board or strengthened the acoustic coupling between the wall and the box.   Anyway the replacement v.45 2477S installed there now is inaudible to the naked ear. 

I hope this experience is helpful to someone!

[tbuchber]

Thanks for the information and feedback. I had one other 2477S, which happened to be new. I connected the new 2477S to a test "harness"; the switch is not beeping on Insteon traffic. Note however that I have not done a Factory Reset.

I took the problematic 2477S (the one beeping on all Insteon traffic) apart. I took the guts out of the clear case; the only thing remaining in the case was the piezo "speaker". By taking the guts out of the case, that provided separation between the piezo "speaker" and the circuit board. In my case, it is definitely the piezo "speaker" that is making the noise.

[stillwater]

Interesting.  Did you try a factory reset of the "problematic" one?    

[tbuchber]

I did at least five Factory Resets on the problematic 2477S. I did not do a Factory Reset once I took it out of the wall. If you think that somehow that there is value on that, now that the switch is out of the wall, I can do that. 

[stillwater]

No, no need.   If I were you given the current shortage of Insteon devices I would clip the wire to the beeper and hope that it works otherwise.