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End of Days Preparation

PB11

By PB11
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PB11 Advanced

PB11

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3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The best system depends on one's needs and desires. I go into more details with my clients to install the right system for them but that's because they're paying for it. 

In general, I look for looks, performance, scalability, flexibility, ease of use, and servicing. Price is a factor as well. My best advice would be to try out different things to see what fits your lifestyle. There are no hard and fast rules to this. 

"because they're paying for it"

That is more then fair. Not really sure how to get my hands dirty with friends systems when "as stated by @simplextech the sytems don't have a cookie cutter interface. I guess this ensures only certified installers can access them.

 

With that said, I guess I"m realizing I'm wanting a more open/ DIYer system where information is openly available and shared via forum much like this.

Or at the most extreme become certified installer. Not really interested in a system I have to rely on an outside body to configure or repair.

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PB11 Advanced

PB11

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17 minutes ago, simplextech said:

No formal announcement because there's been nothing formal.  Every vendor has been going through shortages and delays.

I'll keep my fingers crossed as I'm guessing many are.

I love the insteon hardware with ISY setup, as well as the community in this forum and would morne its loss. Much like i did in my early days of automation when  Stringify shutdown, though it did trigger my exploration into ISY.

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simplextech Advanced

simplextech

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4 minutes ago, PB11 said:

Not really interested in a system I have to rely on an outside body to configure or repair.

This is dependent on which system.  Some Pro systems are strict about how has access and who doesn't.  This is to reduce support on the company.  No company wants thousands of customers calling their support about problems THEY created.

However not all platforms are this strict.  Example with RTI.  I sell/install the system and all customer interaction is between me and the client.  How much access I provide to my customers is determined between ME and THEM and nobody else.  So depending on the customer I may provide a way for them to tinker and do whatever they want.  With a contract fee of 4X support cost when they call me to fix what they broke.

 

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lilyoyo1 Advanced

lilyoyo1

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41 minutes ago, PB11 said:

Ok. I read a redit thread yesterday from mid 2021 that contained what was identified as an email response that had been sent to i believe a manufactuerer of the PLM.

The response stated that the hardware was no longer being manufactured and that the rights to the hardware was held by smarthings and who was no longer allowing production.

I'll try to find it for reference, but i'm seldom lucky enough to find it after the fact.

 

 

Thats because they arent making it at this time. Doesnt mean its a permanent thing. Insteon still has the right to bring it back. If you were to call insteon supprt, theyd say the same thing

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lilyoyo1 Advanced

lilyoyo1

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42 minutes ago, PB11 said:

I'll keep my fingers crossed as I'm guessing many are.

I love the insteon hardware with ISY setup, as well as the community in this forum and would morne its loss. Much like i did in my early days of automation when  Stringify shutdown, though it did trigger my exploration into ISY.

The only thing I can say is buy additional devices as they become available. That way you can replace devices down the road should something happen. Its not like your system will suddenly fail should they cease to exist. In 5-10 years, your system would be ripe for upgrading anyway with advancements.

Outside of Insteon, there isnt anything worth using for lighting in the low cost consumer space in regards to my needs. Id probably switch over to hue bulbs w/polisy in the spaces I really need automation from, and not worry about the rest of the house that we dont use. If you really take the time to understand the different technologies out there, you can still come up with novel ways of achieving the results you're looking for.

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stillwater Advanced

stillwater

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"The only thing I can say is buy additional devices as they become available."

Yes, and more may become available on ebay if Insteon owners panic and sell their stuff.  Even if it's in the wrong color you can substitute your existing faceplates.   The failure rate for individual  (recent dual band) devices is not that high, and people who have been fixing PLM power sections (capacitor replacements)  for long enough now to suggest high quality replacement caps should last a reasonably long time -- and can be replaced again.  

The other thing you can do is make sure you have a whole-house surge protector.  

What with "Matter" or whatever they are calling it now and Zwave 700 and RA3 things are really in flux.  For reasonably small systems wifi with robust routers or a dedicated 2.4 GHZ router should be fine.  I've looked closely at Shelly devices and though there are some things that make them hard to use (control lines not isolated from line voltage, and very scarce documentation even for basic things like what various button presses will do on the dimmers), they can be installed with no connection to the outside world   the move to a scripting language in the Gen2 (Pro/Plus) devices and the existence of the low voltage Uni and the possibly low voltage I3/I4 input devices are promising as is the relatively quick development cycle time.   I don't know if they will be around in 2 years but if they aren't someone else will be doing similar things with the ESP32 microcontroller that has built in wifi (and improved range and security compared to the ESP8266) .    And for KPL replacements there are already DIY Raspberry PI devices with touch screens and also something like ELGATO Stream Deck mini (tactile buttons with tiny controllable LCD images on each of them ) could also be promising.  (People already have home assistant integration with stream deck ).  Not to mention more expensive things like the Brilliant control system.   The pieces are all over the place but we'll have to wait and see the best ways to put it together.   

I have a little construction project underway right now and for it I am going completely technology agnostic by installing modern versions of retro 24v keypads (Kyle Touch Plate) that can be wired by low voltage to a central control unit and/or to distributed dimmers/relays (in this case Shellies with DIY isolated connections.   I am pretty sure I can replicate the Insteon KPL pattern of button presses of toggling on/off brighten/dim with long push and maybe fast on/off as well.  

 

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bhihifi Advanced

bhihifi

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I am replacing an Insteon hub with a Polisy plus a USB Insteon dongle which was easily available on eBay last week. I plan to add a 2443 Access Point near the Polisy as a repeater to get wired communication. I have a PLM as a backup plan. I resurrected two Hubs by simply replacing one capacitor. I do not believe the end of days has come.

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lilyoyo1 Advanced

lilyoyo1

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18 hours ago, stillwater said:

"The only thing I can say is buy additional devices as they become available."

Yes, and more may become available on ebay if Insteon owners panic and sell their stuff.  Even if it's in the wrong color you can substitute your existing faceplates.   The failure rate for individual  (recent dual band) devices is not that high, and people who have been fixing PLM power sections (capacitor replacements)  for long enough now to suggest high quality replacement caps should last a reasonably long time -- and can be replaced again.  

The other thing you can do is make sure you have a whole-house surge protector.  

What with "Matter" or whatever they are calling it now and Zwave 700 and RA3 things are really in flux.  For reasonably small systems wifi with robust routers or a dedicated 2.4 GHZ router should be fine.  I've looked closely at Shelly devices and though there are some things that make them hard to use (control lines not isolated from line voltage, and very scarce documentation even for basic things like what various button presses will do on the dimmers), they can be installed with no connection to the outside world   the move to a scripting language in the Gen2 (Pro/Plus) devices and the existence of the low voltage Uni and the possibly low voltage I3/I4 input devices are promising as is the relatively quick development cycle time.   I don't know if they will be around in 2 years but if they aren't someone else will be doing similar things with the ESP32 microcontroller that has built in wifi (and improved range and security compared to the ESP8266) .    And for KPL replacements there are already DIY Raspberry PI devices with touch screens and also something like ELGATO Stream Deck mini (tactile buttons with tiny controllable LCD images on each of them ) could also be promising.  (People already have home assistant integration with stream deck ).  Not to mention more expensive things like the Brilliant control system.   The pieces are all over the place but we'll have to wait and see the best ways to put it together.   

I have a little construction project underway right now and for it I am going completely technology agnostic by installing modern versions of retro 24v keypads (Kyle Touch Plate) that can be wired by low voltage to a central control unit and/or to distributed dimmers/relays (in this case Shellies with DIY isolated connections.   I am pretty sure I can replicate the Insteon KPL pattern of button presses of toggling on/off brighten/dim with long push and maybe fast on/off as well.  

 

Reading this gave me a headache. Not because the information isn't valuable, but due to the fact that it's so much work for so very little return.

Alot of that is probably too techie in installation and in looks for most people on here. Reading it makes me imagine a house built by a young Sheldon ? 

Edited by lilyoyo1
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lilyoyo1 Advanced

lilyoyo1

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9 hours ago, macjeff said:

Since its based on the same protocol there is hope we can use the new stuff when the old stuff breaks.

 

Michel has already stated they will not be adding support for the nokia line UNLESS  Smartlabs provides them with the necessary documentation and support needed to add them properly. 

While the base protocol is the same, there are still a lot of features that would need to be added to get them to work properly with the ISY. For starters, the switches can be a relay or dimmer. You can also set the low end trim so that your bulbs do not flicker when dimmed too low. The most obvious aspect that would be missing is the firmware updates since UDI wouldnt have access. 

Without UDI adding support, they can be added to the ISY in their basic state as an unsupported device. The ISY will actually control the devices as well. Only the kpl load would show up in the ISY and when it comes to the dual outlet, only the top outlet would show and allow the isy to control it. You would not receive status from any device without querying it. 

Im hoping they actually recognize how much money they are leaving on the table by shunning so many existing users. Right now, they want to build their own brand but hopefully they realize that theyll need partners to succeed. 

Edited by lilyoyo1
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MrBill Advanced

MrBill

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2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Michel has already stated they will not be adding support for the nokia line UNLESS  Smartlabs provides them with the necessary documentation and support needed to add them properly. 

While the base protocol is the same, there are still a lot of features that would need to be added to get them to work properly with the ISY. For starters, the switches can be a relay or dimmer. You can also set the low end trim so that your bulbs do not flicker when dimmed too low. The most obvious aspect that would be missing is the firmware updates since UDI wouldnt have access. 

Without UDI adding support, they can be added to the ISY in their basic state as an unsupported device. The ISY will actually control the devices as well. Only the kpl load would show up in the ISY and when it comes to the dual outlet, only the top outlet would show and allow the isy to control it. You would not receive status from any device without querying it. 

Im hoping they actually recognize how much money they are leaving on the table by shunning so many existing users. Right now, they want to build their own brand but hopefully they realize that theyll need partners to succeed. 

How many times have you had to repeat this since last summer?

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upstatemike Advanced

upstatemike

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So if Smartlabs decides not to share documentation with companies like UDI, Hubitat, and Homeseer and if Lutron also decides to withhold the RA3 API from those companies, what will the HA landscape look like going forward? Z-Wave has a long list of shortcomings and Matter does not look like it will fix many (if any) of them. Zigbee appears to have no interest in providing higher end switches with features like premium styling, direct associations, smooth group control, or customizable buttons and LEDs. 

Same question as all the other "what is the best option going forward" posts except not assuming any group or company is focusing on the things that DIY consumers care about. Are we in for a decade or so of depending on reverse engineered solutions because no company will share info outside of their walled garden?

(Yes I am one of those people)

Edited by upstatemike
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apostolakisl Advanced

apostolakisl

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On 2/20/2022 at 12:51 PM, PB11 said:

I'll keep my fingers crossed as I'm guessing many are.

I love the insteon hardware with ISY setup, as well as the community in this forum and would morne its loss. Much like i did in my early days of automation when  Stringify shutdown, though it did trigger my exploration into ISY.

I wouldn't get too worried.  First off, polyisy work with z-wave and via node servers, lots of things, I imagine many more to come.  Secondly, if Smartlabs actually folds, the assets will be sold.  Whoever buys it will presumably make plms.  And as mentioned, most plm's can be fixed.

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MrBill Advanced

MrBill

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58 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Lutron also decides to withhold the RA3 API from those companies,

Lutron publishes their API's they can be googled.  Smarthome used to try, but it was never complete, then they took it away completely.

 

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