With Insteon Done...Now What / How to Integrate Others

[KHouse]

With Insteon being done...what is the general consensus on how to incorporate other technology (Z-Wave for example) moving forward?

I'm using an ISY994i with Insteon and Elk M1 (for alarm).  I recently wanted to add/change a few more light switches to Insteon and come to find that they are basically out of business.  So...with that said, I've got a house full of mostly Insteon switches that will one day need replacement (technology doesn't last forever, plus if the PLM every goes....).

What is everyone else who is more knowledgeable than me doing in this situation?  I don't really like the aesthetic idea of adding new light switches that are Z-wave / not Insteon to the ISY (though possible) and just waiting for the PLM to die before replacing all my other light switches.  (Don't like the idea of mis-matched switches).

But also don't like the idea of replacing everything so that it all matches.

I've been very happy with the Insteon setup and actually really like the quality and feel of the switches, so not too happy that they're done (I've got Control4 at one of my businesses and strongly dislike the look and mostly feel of their switches).

Just wondering what other folks are doing with their systems now.

[JTsao]

I can't speak for everyone but having moved to ISY on Polisy (IoP), z-wave is significantly improved (over ISY994) and is now a good option.  I now have about 20 z-wave devices, along with my 50+ Insteon devices.  In the grand scheme of things a decora switch looks similar enough if it's Insteon or Enbrighten (z-wave) - I have both.  Will probably use the same types of switches in a room, but room to room, doesn't really matter...

 

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, KHouse said:

With Insteon being done...what is the general consensus on how to incorporate other technology (Z-Wave for example) moving forward?

I'm using an ISY994i with Insteon and Elk M1 (for alarm).  I recently wanted to add/change a few more light switches to Insteon and come to find that they are basically out of business.  So...with that said, I've got a house full of mostly Insteon switches that will one day need replacement (technology doesn't last forever, plus if the PLM every goes....).

What is everyone else who is more knowledgeable than me doing in this situation?  I don't really like the aesthetic idea of adding new light switches that are Z-wave / not Insteon to the ISY (though possible) and just waiting for the PLM to die before replacing all my other light switches.  (Don't like the idea of mis-matched switches).

But also don't like the idea of replacing everything so that it all matches.

I've been very happy with the Insteon setup and actually really like the quality and feel of the switches, so not too happy that they're done (I've got Control4 at one of my businesses and strongly dislike the look and mostly feel of their switches).

Just wondering what other folks are doing with their systems now.

I plan to use radio ra3 with polisy if it supports it by the time my house is built. If not, I'm going to use it with Control4. 

[KHouse]

Thanks for the replies folks.  I was reading about Polisy with the with the z-wave dongle yesterday.  Seems to be a good solution for the foreseeable future.  My setup isn't too intricate, but just liked the idea of keeping everything the same.  However, unlikely that's possible so preparing now.  It's been a while since I've needed to update or change anything in my system so didn't realize the current (almost 2 years) status of Insteon.

 

12 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I plan to use radio ra3 with polisy if it supports it by the time my house is built. If not, I'm going to use it with Control4. 

Why do you plan to use Control4?  Having used it in a business I built, I regret it.  It's a fine system, just overpriced and overcomplicated for my needs there.

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, KHouse said:

Thanks for the replies folks.  I was reading about Polisy with the with the z-wave dongle yesterday.  Seems to be a good solution for the foreseeable future.  My setup isn't too intricate, but just liked the idea of keeping everything the same.  However, unlikely that's possible so preparing now.  It's been a while since I've needed to update or change anything in my system so didn't realize the current (almost 2 years) status of Insteon.

 

Why do you plan to use Control4?  Having used it in a business I built, I regret it.  It's a fine system, just overpriced and overcomplicated for my needs there.

I'm a dealer. I get a discount and can program it myself. Why do you feel it's overpriced and overly complicated?

I can't speak on your issues but any installer based system will be expensive. It sounds like the installer didn't properly gauge your needs and pushed a lot of options that you probably didn't need (happens often)

At the end of the day, you're paying someone to do the work and the cost adds up. Commercial jobs even moreso due to the rules and regulations vs residential. In addition, due to the nature of commercial work, an installer will put more into what a job needs to ensure stability and robustness to minimize callbacks and downtime for the client. This can raise costs significantly. On the outside looking in, you may feel it's overpriced but depending on what they did, you could've lost more with a poor install that saved you money on the front end. 

I don't do commercial jobs but I've seen the typical markup be 30-50% higher than the same installation in a residential home.

C4 is actually one of the cheaper options. Savant, homeworks and Creston makes it look like a bargain (especially Crestron) ?. 

[stillwater]

I wouldn't trust our local installer to plug in a toaster. 

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, stillwater said:

I wouldn't trust our local installer to plug in a toaster. 

You only have 1? That's part of the issue. All of these systems really comes down to strength of installer

[stillwater]

Yes, it's a problem.    

[KHouse]

33 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm a dealer. I get a discount and can program it myself. Why do you feel it's overpriced and overly complicated?

I can't speak on your issues but any installer based system will be expensive. It sounds like the installer didn't properly gauge your needs and pushed a lot of options that you probably didn't need (happens often)

At the end of the day, you're paying someone to do the work and the cost adds up. Commercial jobs even moreso due to the rules and regulations vs residential. In addition, due to the nature of commercial work, an installer will put more into what a job needs to ensure stability and robustness to minimize callbacks and downtime for the client. This can raise costs significantly. On the outside looking in, you may feel it's overpriced but depending on what they did, you could've lost more with a poor install that saved you money on the front end. 

I don't do commercial jobs but I've seen the typical markup be 30-50% higher than the same installation in a residential home.

C4 is actually one of the cheaper options. Savant, homeworks and Creston makes it look like a bargain (especially Crestron) ?. 

There's two problems.  First, my fault.  I had them install more than I needed.  For example thinking it's a good idea to have in ceiling speakers and tons of zones/audio inputs sounded like a good idea, but in practice, we generally only want background music so will have an Amazon echo that's in the room play music.  So wasted money there.  Some other items like that too that I wouldn't do again.  But that's my fault.

But as a consumer, you don't get to program it (sort of, if you pay the $100/year you get the watered down version of the programming), and watching these guys program some of the stuff (for lights/motion/etc) seemed way more complicated than what I do at home with the ISY/Insteon/Elk/Honeywell/Smoke Alarms.  So that's why I felt it rather over complicated.

Although I had it installed there because I wanted to be hands-off (I wanted to call someone if troubleshooting was needed vs. how at home I'm responsible for the troubleshooting).  However, I didn't realize that they pretty much lock the customer out and you can't troubleshoot your own system if you wanted and have to call the dealer.  So that's was a little annoying to find out after the fact.

[simplextech]

37 minutes ago, stillwater said:

I wouldn't trust our local installer to plug in a toaster. 

Maybe take a look at RTI?

 

[lilyoyo1]

30 minutes ago, KHouse said:

There's two problems.  First, my fault.  I had them install more than I needed.  For example thinking it's a good idea to have in ceiling speakers and tons of zones/audio inputs sounded like a good idea, but in practice, we generally only want background music so will have an Amazon echo that's in the room play music.  So wasted money there.  Some other items like that too that I wouldn't do again.  But that's my fault.

But as a consumer, you don't get to program it (sort of, if you pay the $100/year you get the watered down version of the programming), and watching these guys program some of the stuff (for lights/motion/etc) seemed way more complicated than what I do at home with the ISY/Insteon/Elk/Honeywell/Smoke Alarms.  So that's why I felt it rather over complicated.

Although I had it installed there because I wanted to be hands-off (I wanted to call someone if troubleshooting was needed vs. how at home I'm responsible for the troubleshooting).  However, I didn't realize that they pretty much lock the customer out and you can't troubleshoot your own system if you wanted and have to call the dealer.  So that's was a little annoying to find out after the fact.

Thanks. All valid points. Sonos, and voice assistants has changed the game.....Big time. It used to be we needed a whole home system to cover every room in the house.

Now Sonos and voice assistants covers all of that. I'll still do in ceiling speakers on patios and main areas due to size and clean lines. In secondary spaces such as spare rooms, I'll just put a speaker in there. In LR with 2 story ceilings, I'll try to hide multiple Sonos speakers around the room so they're heard but not seen. 

There are some really good diy people out there such as yourself where installed systems would be an issue (why I wouldn't use one myself that i couldn't manage). We want the control that we wouldn't have.

Additional programming changes and troubleshooting has always been an issue with customers. I have extra programming built into my price and customers have the ability to sign a service contract with discounted pricing to minimize sticker shock for those 1 off changes. It's helped mitigate that some. 

Programming C4 is actually pretty easy once you know the system. It's the same as the Isy for the most part in regards to difficulty. In some ways it's easier because of how things are segregated. 

I'm hoping polisy ends up with ra3 support. It would be great for a lower cost solution for those who want a simple lighting system. This would be especially great if @simplextechcan get his Sonos Node server out there. 

[simplextech]

9 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm hoping polisy ends up with ra3 support. It would be great for a lower cost solution for those who want a simple lighting system. This would be especially great if @simplextechcan get his Sonos Node server out there. 

Ra 3 is work in progress... waiting on Lutron....

Sonos is work in progress as with other PG3 node servers.

[lilyoyo1]

3 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Ra 3 is work in progress... waiting on Lutron....

Sonos is work in progress as with other PG3 node servers.

I figured that. Just letting you know im looking forward to it and so others are aware someone is on it. Does Lutron seem to be more receptive now?

[simplextech]

7 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Does Lutron seem to be more receptive now?

No.

[stillwater]

37 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Maybe take a look at RTI?

@simplextech  If you don't mind, What's the best way to learn about RTI?   My current project is a somewhat rustic lake compound where I have a somewhat complex self-designed heating /warm-up control system (with homebrew microprocessor control)  and probably Shelly Dimmers in lamp boxes with DC keypapds wired to a central control box.     I am assuming that Audio will be just Apple Airplay 2.  (When I made this choice I wasn't sure I would have reliable internet so no Sonos but now I think I can get Starlink to work).   

Given all this I was thinking of using Home Assistant as the lighting/heating control interface -- just learning about Home Assistant.   The learning curve would be a lot faster with Polisy but I certainly didn't want to do the node servers my self.  (For several years I  have had a very limited one on the ISY994i for Sauna control). 

[simplextech]

3 minutes ago, stillwater said:

If you don't mind, What's the best way to learn about RTI? 

Go to the rticontrol.com website and find local dealer.  Or talk to a dealer who does remote management or travel installs. 

4 minutes ago, stillwater said:

My current project is a somewhat rustic lake compound where I have a somewhat complex self-designed heating /warm-up control system (with homebrew microprocessor control)  and probably Shelly Dimmers in lamp boxes with DC keypapds wired to a central control box.     I am assuming that Audio will be just Apple Airplay 2.  (When I made this choice I wasn't sure I would have reliable internet so no Sonos but now I think I can get Starlink to work). 

A lot more details of what/how things are configured/wired today would be needed by anyone looking at this project and possibly a site inspection for anyone who is going to be responsible for this.  It sounds.... very hackish DIY (no offense) I have plenty of this myself but nothing I would ever support for someone else.

In either direction of rip/replace or integrate/augment this is not going to be cheap with any professional system.  Doesn't matter if it's RTI, Control4, URC any of them are going to be much more expensive than Home Assistant.

[stillwater]

@simplextech  Thanks!  

[prairiecode]

So I'm trying to figure this out too.  My PLM is on its last legs, but I have tons of devices in my house - virtually every switch, love the keypads, etc.

What to replace with though?  Z-Wave?  Zigbee?  Something else?

Things I like about the Insteon:

- It works over the power lines, so my shed is integrated into the system also (though I could conceivably place a second Z-Wave dongle or something there)

- The switches pair with each other for scenes, so dimming/etc doesn't require the controller (not sure if Z-Wave/Zigbee can do this).  I've used this a lot for 3-way type setups.

- I have a number of Insteon keypads that I really like.

I may stick with the ISY, may go with Home Assistant (I'm a Linux programmer anyhow, and I've used HA to do a simple setup at a remote site).  I wouldn't limit my search to ISY, but ISY compatibility is nice-ish.

I have some Z-Wave already (locks and thermostats mainly) but I wouldn't want that to be a limiting factor.

Ideas?

[larryllix]

So I'm trying to figure this out too.  My PLM is on its last legs, but I have tons of devices in my house - virtually every switch, love the keypads, etc.
What to replace with though?  Z-Wave?  Zigbee?  Something else?
Things I like about the Insteon:
- It works over the power lines, so my shed is integrated into the system also (though I could conceivably place a second Z-Wave dongle or something there)
- The switches pair with each other for scenes, so dimming/etc doesn't require the controller (not sure if Z-Wave/Zigbee can do this).  I've used this a lot for 3-way type setups.
- I have a number of Insteon keypads that I really like.
I may stick with the ISY, may go with Home Assistant (I'm a Linux programmer anyhow, and I've used HA to do a simple setup at a remote site).  I wouldn't limit my search to ISY, but ISY compatibility is nice-ish.
I have some Z-Wave already (locks and thermostats mainly) but I wouldn't want that to be a limiting factor.
Ideas?

Just read these threads for the last few years where users have discussed this to death.

Most could see it coming and it was no surprise.

Let us know how you did, once you decide.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[MrBill]

31 minutes ago, prairiecode said:

My PLM is on its last legs,

How do you know?

Anyway, the capacitors can be replaced, if you're not handy with a soldering iron, search "PLM repair" on Ebay.  There's a guy that charges $55 or $75 depending on whats wrong.

33 minutes ago, prairiecode said:

I may stick with the ISY, may go with Home Assistant

Why not both?  There is a Universal-Devices core integration for Home Assistant.   It works flawlessly.  Basically Home Assistant becomes a front end to the ISY, all your nodes and the variables you choose from the ISY appear as entities in HA.   I've been using it for a year and a half (i think) and love it.

[prairiecode]

41 minutes ago, MrBill said:

How do you know?

Anyway, the capacitors can be replaced, if you're not handy with a soldering iron, search "PLM repair" on Ebay.  There's a guy that charges $55 or $75 depending on whats wrong.

Why not both?  There is a Universal-Devices core integration for Home Assistant.   It works flawlessly.  Basically Home Assistant becomes a front end to the ISY, all your nodes and the variables you choose from the ISY appear as entities in HA.   I've been using it for a year and a half (i think) and love it.

Good points.  HA as an ISY frontend could be perfect.

As far as "how do you know" - we had a storm in the area last week.  We have power flickering.  After that, I had to replace the power supply for my ISY-994i and the PLM stopped communicating.  I moved the PLM to a different room (away from my utility room where I also have my network switches, etc.) and that seems to have helped, but I strongly suspect I've got a problem with it that may or may not be the standard caps.

[prairiecode]

45 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Just read these threads for the last few years where users have discussed this to death.
 

I did search before posting.  I didn't turn up useful results, particularly for my desire to have the switches able to link directly (in a virtual 3-way), but then the search here is sub-optimal.  I'd be happy if you have any links to share!

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, prairiecode said:

So I'm trying to figure this out too.  My PLM is on its last legs, but I have tons of devices in my house - virtually every switch, love the keypads, etc.

What to replace with though?  Z-Wave?  Zigbee?  Something else?

Things I like about the Insteon:

- It works over the power lines, so my shed is integrated into the system also (though I could conceivably place a second Z-Wave dongle or something there)

- The switches pair with each other for scenes, so dimming/etc doesn't require the controller (not sure if Z-Wave/Zigbee can do this).  I've used this a lot for 3-way type setups.

- I have a number of Insteon keypads that I really like.

I may stick with the ISY, may go with Home Assistant (I'm a Linux programmer anyhow, and I've used HA to do a simple setup at a remote site).  I wouldn't limit my search to ISY, but ISY compatibility is nice-ish.

I have some Z-Wave already (locks and thermostats mainly) but I wouldn't want that to be a limiting factor.

Ideas?

It's whatever you want to use. If you like zwave go with zwave. If you want to try wifi switches you can. Smart bulbs are even an option.

The point that I'm making is to try different things and see what you like. There is no specific technology that's a must have...only what fits what you're trying to accomplish. 

Personally i don't see the point in changing. The sheer number of insteon devices on eBay will keep the price from jumping too high

[jrainey]

I have been pondering the same issue for some time now.  Finally decided to go with ISY on Polisy.  The clincher for me was that our supplier (in Canada) is offering Polisy bundled with a PLM.  Noticed this over the weekend, called this morning and yes, they have 10 PLM's in stocks, which they are only selling in the bundle.  Sales rep says they are going like hotcakes.

My plan is to migrate my existing ISY to IoP, then start to slowly (over years) replace what I can with z-wave devices.  I have been unable to source some items, like the irrigation controller and a 240v load controller, but am sure other solutions will become available if it becomes absolutely necessary. (when my last PLM fails)

That is my path, fwiw.

 

Jack

[upstatemike]

4 hours ago, prairiecode said:

So I'm trying to figure this out too.  My PLM is on its last legs, but I have tons of devices in my house - virtually every switch, love the keypads, etc.

What to replace with though?  Z-Wave?  Zigbee?  Something else?

Things I like about the Insteon:

- It works over the power lines, so my shed is integrated into the system also (though I could conceivably place a second Z-Wave dongle or something there)

- The switches pair with each other for scenes, so dimming/etc doesn't require the controller (not sure if Z-Wave/Zigbee can do this).  I've used this a lot for 3-way type setups.

- I have a number of Insteon keypads that I really like.

I may stick with the ISY, may go with Home Assistant (I'm a Linux programmer anyhow, and I've used HA to do a simple setup at a remote site).  I wouldn't limit my search to ISY, but ISY compatibility is nice-ish.

I have some Z-Wave already (locks and thermostats mainly) but I wouldn't want that to be a limiting factor.

Ideas?

I would set a few requirements to prevent getting into a simiar jam in the future. Mine are:

No dependency on cloud services for basic operation

Does not use the overcrowded 2.4GHz radio band

Does not rely on address space or cpu from my router to manage endpoint devices

Uses broadcasts rather than routed communications so routes can't get messed up and delays can't create a "popcorn effect".

No discernable delay in any operation

Easy and very rapid backup and restore to new hardware in case of a controller failure

Can scale to at least 256 devices without any perceptable impact on performance

End devices are attractive and intuitive (ie true rocker switches, no push on/push off toggles, etc.)

Has a robust local API for easy integration to any Home Automation controller

Just make your own list like this and then go through each available technology option to see which ones tick all the boxes.