Controller - Responder clarification

[MarkJames]

Hi,

 

Prior to ISY I was manually linking my switches. Then I switched to HouseLinc2, then to PowerHome, and finally to ISY. Just fyi - so far I'm happiest - by a long shot - with ISY.

 

There's an aspect to ISY that I don't understand though and perhaps you could clarify for me.

 

Let's assume I'm linking a KPL to a switchlinc.

I can make the KPL control the switchlinc - so the KPL is a controller and the switchlinc is the responder. This will have the effect of the KPL button turning on and off the switchlinc. The switchlinc will seem to 'follow' the LED on the KPL button. If I then turn the switchlinc on or off the KPL button will NOT turn on and off to follow the switchlinc unless I FIRST make the switchlinc a controller of that KPL button. In other words - I must deliberately create the controller - responder relationship both ways.

 

This relationship is true in manual linking and in powerhome software.

 

In ISY, though, the creation of scenes seems to automatically create the '3 way link' - where the KPL LED will follow the switchlinc and the switchlinc will follow the KPL.

 

This is, of course, not true in devices like a motion sensor or iolinc where turning it 'on or off' is meaningless.

 

So how does one create a one-way relationship in ISY - where the KPL button can turn on the switchlinc - but the switchlinc does NOT turn on the KPL button?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

 

 

 

In many cases this is fine - but in some it's not.

[brad77]

The 3-way scene, as you call it, is only created if you specify that both devices are to be controllers when you add it to the scene. In your example, the SW and KPL will follow each other if both are controllers in the scene. If you set up the scene so that the KPL is a controller but the SW is a responder, the SW will follow the KPL, but not vice versa.

 

I find the "3-way scene" to be convenient, as it doesn't require me to create multiple scenes for n-way switches.

[MarkJames]

The 3-way scene, as you call it, is only created if you specify that both devices are to be controllers when you add it to the scene. In your example, the SW and KPL will follow each other if both are controllers in the scene. If you set up the scene so that the KPL is a controller but the SW is a responder, the SW will follow the KPL, but not vice versa.

 

I find the "3-way scene" to be convenient, as it doesn't require me to create multiple scenes for n-way switches.

 

hmmm.....

 

That was how I assumed it should be but hasn't been my experience.

 

I'll have to be more careful and see if I'm inadvertently creating both links or if the links are pre-existing.

 

I totally agree with you about making it a three way in that manner being easier. I'm just trying to set up certain scenes where there are multiple responders to a single controller but don't want the relationship reciprocal - like where one kpl turns on 2 lights but I don't want either light switch to turn on or off the kpl - rather I use a programmatic control so that when BOTH of the lights are on the kpl button gets turned on and when BOTH of the lights get turned off the kpl button gets turned off.

 

This was just kinda the way you did things in powerhome - in ISY the 'scene' is everything - not the controller-responder links which are somewhat hidden from the end user. Using scenes certainly makes it more apparent what you're doing and makes it easier to reuse your link tables - it just takes away the nitty-gritty control that I'm used to.

 

Anyways - thanks for your answer - It makes perfect sense that it's like that. It just seemed to me that ISY was automatically creating a responder link in the controller in order to 'complete the n-way'. It's likely that I have some remaining links that are causing the confusion.

 

mark

[markens]

I'm just trying to set up certain scenes where there are multiple responders to a single controller but don't want the relationship reciprocal.

The ISY is actually pretty smart about this, and it's easy to do. When you add a device to a scene that can potentially be a controller in that scene, a popup appears that allows you to select controller or responder for that relationship. A device can be a controller in no more than one scene, so once that is done you can add the device only as a responder in additional scenes.

 

It's likely that I have some remaining links that are causing the confusion.

You can use the Tools->Diagnostics->ShowDeviceLinksTable function to display current links table for a device, and then click Compare (bottom of window) to compare that to what the ISY thinks it should be.

[oberkc]

It's likely that I have some remaining links that are causing the confusion.

 

That was my first reaction...you had already created a bunch of links in the devices prior to ISY. I wondered if you had performed a factory reset on the device before adding to the ISY. If not, did you remove the links when adding to the ISY. Also, is it possible that there are some X-10 addresses in the device.

 

I know it is a little bit of pain, but it doesn't sound like you have too many devices yet, so I would start over. Remove the devices from the ISY. Factory reset each of your switches, link them back to the ISY, then create the scenes. I would expect this to solve your problem.

[MarkJames]

I know it is a little bit of pain, but it doesn't sound like you have too many devices yet, so I would start over.

 

lol

That made me grin.

I have, at this moment....

5500 sqft in 3 buildings

4 signalincs hardwired into the panels

8 access points

19 keypadlincs

65 switchlincs

9 inlinelincs

8 motion sensors

5 iolincs - 2 of them with photobeams

8 appliancelincs - 3 of them outdoor, the rest indoor

Elk M1G with M1XEP interface connected to the ISY

1 serialinc to interface with my Stargate for phone integration and irrigation using legacy X10

1 usb plm (legacy) to interface with powerhome on a standalone PC for HA - this is for TTS primarily

and I just ordered 3 of the BK2440 remote controls - 2 for the cars and 5 more motion sensors.

 

'Starting over' has happened a few times now... I'm realllllly not willing to do it again.

 

It's no big deal anyways... the only time it shows up is if one of the switches needs to be restored and then it doesn't do what I thought it should because the scenes aren't doing it all - some of it is left over from before.

 

You're right, though... when things aren't seeming 'OK' - I simply hard reset the device, restore it from ISY and then confirm that it's all working properly. Since installing the signalincs and the extra ap's everything is pretty solid.

 

 

 

You can use the Tools->Diagnostics->ShowDeviceLinksTable function to display current links table for a device, and then click Compare (bottom of window) to compare that to what the ISY thinks it should be.

 

Thanks for that... I didn't know that was available. I'm gonna do that today - well worth the time, I think. I only have to do the ones that were 'original'. Some of the insteon has been there for a couple of years while I overlapped with X-10. I've tried to take out all the X-10 responses but I find them once in a while. Those and links I created manually, with powerhome, or with Houselinc as things evolved.

 

Thanks!

 

Mark

[brad77]

Like he said. Start over. No big deal.

[oberkc]

That is, indeed, a lot of devices. I would not be willing to start completely over, either.

 

Fortunately, my suggestion about starting over applies only to the couple of devices and scenes with which I percieve you are having trouble. But it sounds like my perception has been less than accurate at times.[/img]

[MarkJames]

That is, indeed, a lot of devices. I would not be willing to start completely over, either.

 

Fortunately, my suggestion about starting over applies only to the couple of devices and scenes with which I percieve you are having trouble. But it sounds like my perception has been less than accurate at times.[/img]

 

Not at all.... sorry if I sounded flip. I've just sat there sullenly facing the prospect of 'starting over' so many times now that I'd almost rather speak in public than do it.

 

I started with just x-10 back in the early '90s and got a JDS Stargate when that came available. It's a brilliant controller with a robust programming language but - as you no doubt have found - as you go along with programming your HA it tends to 'get away from you'. I found I was adding bits of code for things I'd added that contradicted the code I'd written for previous devices. Like having the driveway lights turn on when a car comes in and turning them off once you enter the house - but opening the door to the house going out is the same as coming in so when I interfaced with door contacts later and had the lights turn on as I left the house I'd turn the lights on at either end.... I'm sure you've banged your head against the wall with these scenarios too... it's enough to give you a headache. The worst part is that when you try to explain it to your spouse they just kinda smile and nod and hope you'll shut up soon.

 

Anyways - the point being that every year or so I'd have to rewrite the 4000 odd lines of code for the Stargate. Then Insteon came out and I had the Stargate run the insteon through X-10 addressing but that didn't use the full potential of Insteon. So I rewrote the code so that the Stargate could talk to Insteon through an RS-232 interface. This proved to be a lot more than 4000 lines of code and the Stargate memory started getting full.

 

So I made the jump to Houselinc to manage the straightforward non-programmatic stuff. So I entered all my devices into Houselinc and started playing with it. I had a system crash meanwhile and lost all the Houselinc info. So I reentered it all yet again. Then I found that Houselinc is a seriously lackluster product and I quickly abandoned it in favor of Powerhome.

 

So on to Powerhome and reentering all my devices yet again. Well Powerhome is a pretty nice product but it has two big flaws - one is it's not 100% stable so it would crash the PC it was on sometimes leaving the automation system dead and two the programming language is about as cryptic as it gets. Support for it is basically 2 guys in the forum and the logic to it is highly convoluted. The guy who wrote it is very nice and very knowledgeable but he really needs some help as he's rapidly fallihg behind as smarthome evolves. For instance - his linking methods don't allow peeking and poking within a device - so you can't link, say button 8 on a kpl to button 1 on the same KPL.

 

Onwards to ISY. I tried to let ISY spider my links. It ran 2 days after which I named everything only to find it was a big ugly mess. So I reset the PLM and started over again - this time not spidering but erasing links.

 

Finally I'm where I want to be (kinda).

 

Anyways.... again, sorry if I was flip.. it's just that 'starting over' brings back some less-than-fond memories.

 

Doesn't HA just make our lives oh-so-much easier?!?!?!?

[brad77]

But it sounds like my perception has been less than accurate at times.

Sorry oberkc. I meant that in jest. I was just a bit taken aback by the size of his installation.

[oberkc]

Doesn't HA just make our lives oh-so-much easier?!?!?!?

 

But are we not having so much fun!!!???

 

My system is much more modest than yours. I have, probably, 6 keypads, 30 switches of various types, 20 plug-in modules, and the remotelink. I use X-10 for holiday lighting, motion sensors, table-top control, and integration with theater remote. You are correct, I have had a few headaches, but probably no migranes such as yours. If it were easy, everyone would do it.

 

Fortunately, my system is working pretty well right now, thanks to a few strategically placed filters and a dedicated ciruit for the PLM.

 

Sorry oberkc. I meant that in jest. I was just a bit taken aback by the size of his installation.

 

No offense taken. I, too, was taken aback. Yikes. I thought the problem was just a couple of controllers and a scene or two.

[MarkJames]

Actually, OberKc,

 

If you are still using some X-10 I may have some components you might want. I've got a produce box full of x-10 that I've taken out of the house some of which you may find useful. You're welcome to whatever you want - all I ask is that you cover the postage.

 

I have

• Leviton transmitters model 16400 with four on/off/dim switches,
  Boosterlincs (not insteon compatible unfortunately but OK at terminal runs for X-10 with no noticeable impact on insteon)
  Leviton inline dimming modules
  Leviton inline relay modules
  X-10 remote controls (the ones with 8 buttons you switch from 1-8/9-16
  a few appliance modules
  a Leviton HCA02 intellisense phase coupler
  I think I have a couple of 220v switches kicking about... I'm not really sure what's in the box anymore.
  

 

Anyways - if you want some of it just say so - it's sitting there looking for a good home. I was going to put it on eBay but don't want to mess around selling it piecemeal - it's just not worth the headache boxing it and shipping it.

[apostolakisl]

The worst part is that when you try to explain it to your spouse they just kinda smile and nod and hope you'll shut up soon.

 

And I thought I was the only one.

[oberkc]

Anyways - if you want some of it just say so - it's sitting there looking for a good home.

 

That is a generous offer. Thank you. I think, however, that I will use insteon for any growth of my system. I have enough spare X-10 stuff laying around. I suspect any more would lay around, as well. Thanks, again.

[MarkJames]

And I thought I was the only one.

 

hahahaha

my personal favorite is the look on her face when yet another box arrives from smarthome!