Insteon acquired and servers coming back up

[silverton38]

It appears that Insteon is coming back. This is exciting.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/9/23161803/insteon-customers-bought-company-restored-service

 

[asbril]

My two cents...... I hope that these investors realize the cost of Insteon's survival.  The future of Insteon is much more than turning on the server switch. They will need manufacturing, inventory & sales, support as well as innovation to keep up with evolving expectations.

They should consider to license and allow others to manufacture devices and plm/ hubs (*), which would bring them an income stream and possibly reduce their own expenses (less manufacturing, inventory etc).

If not mistaken, the previous owner had acquired Smarthome for a large amount and most likely put more money in (trying) to keep Smarthome running. Unless the new owners are geniuses with deep pockets, they may not find it easy.

(*) First thing the new owners should do is to allow UD to manufacture a PLM and/or hub.

Edited June 11, 2022 by asbril

[ase]

So as I stated back when the demise was but a rumor, the technology would continue even if the company failed.

This is exactly what has happened. Insteon from a technical side is and has been head and shoulders above the others. There are still products that no one else makes better, like Fanlinc, the keypads, and the outdoor plugs.

So here we are a new Insteon has risen from the ashes. I know I have questions and I am sure many of you do as well. 

Michel has said he has known Ken for years, this is a good sign.

My questions are simple:

Will the existing line of devices be brought back?

Will Insteon be licenced to 3rd parties?

Will Insteon be apt to work more closely with UDI?

From posts in the Insteon SubReddit, it sounds like Hub will become a fee based system(as it always should have been).

Now the issue is does that make them less or more likely to work with 3rd parties.

Michel may already have these answers, and be unable to share them, or maybe nobody has those answers yet. I personally am just happy Insteon is back with better leadership. I think now, we may see just what Insteon really can do. 

[upstatemike]

My questions are also simple:

Will Insteon follow through on the Nokia deal or at least inorporate those new designs into the regular line in order to put a fresh face on Insteon?

Will Insteon finally acknowledge the chronic capacitor issue and insure that all new products have proper capacitors that do not lead to premature device failures?

Will Insteon encourage integration with major user platforms such as Smartthings, UDI, Hubitat, and Home Assistant in order to build good will and product buzz within those communities?

Will Insteon seek partnerships with non-competing brands such as Hue or Sonos to expand the appeal of an Insteon based Home?

Will Insteon aggressively market the advantages of their technology over routed protocols with ads that talk about smooth scene control v.s. "popcorn effect", the ability to add devices anywhere v.s. "building out a network", and so on?

Will Insteon make themselves a reliable partner that professional integrators can depend on for support and realistic wholesale pricing?

Will Insteon use their strengths to challenge direct competitors such as Lutron Caseta by emphasizing products the others don't offer such as the Fanlinc?

Will Insteon engage more directly with end users on forums to understand what those users are really looking for? Perhaps have a full-time product ambassadore similiar to Eric at Yolink?

 

[lilyoyo1]

28 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

My questions are also simple:

Will Insteon follow through on the Nokia deal or at least inorporate those new designs into the regular line in order to put a fresh face on Insteon?

Will Insteon finally acknowledge the chronic capacitor issue and insure that all new products have proper capacitors that do not lead to premature device failures?

Will Insteon encourage integration with major user platforms such as Smartthings, UDI, Hubitat, and Home Assistant in order to build good will and product buzz within those communities?

Will Insteon seek partnerships with non-competing brands such as Hue or Sonos to expand the appeal of an Insteon based Home?

Will Insteon aggressively market the advantages of their technology over routed protocols with ads that talk about smooth scene control v.s. "popcorn effect", the ability to add devices anywhere v.s. "building out a network", and so on?

Will Insteon make themselves a reliable partner that professional integrators can depend on for support and realistic wholesale pricing?

Will Insteon use their strengths to challenge direct competitors such as Lutron Caseta by emphasizing products the others don't offer such as the Fanlinc?

Will Insteon engage more directly with end users on forums to understand what those users are really looking for? Perhaps have a full-time product ambassadore similiar to Eric at Yolink?

 

I'd love to see them use the nokia line (renamed) vs bringing back the old stuff. Time to move forward vs holding onto the past. Insteon was sinking with the old line available. Prior to the last few years, many people lambasted insteon over the old line. Reality is, people have spoken and it's time to move on. 

Why bring old stuff back? Sure, you'll have quick sales while people stock up but nothing that will sustain them over time. As much as I supported them, i had already stopped buying insteon because the look has grown dated when compared to other modern offerings. Judging by all the devices available on eBay over the last few month, many others have moved on too. 

Either way it'll be some time device wise in regards to implementing changes. I'm sure all of their engineers and coders have moved on which means starting over with new people having to learn insteon. 

I'd love to see them make licensing deals but still question its worth overall. How many partners will jump on that band wagon when there are other technologies readily available and cheaper to implement.... Especially with matter on the horizon. I want to see them succeed but they have a long hard road ahead of them. Only time will tell what lessons were learned and if insteon can become viable again. 

[apostolakisl]

@ase I agree, I had also expected that should SH go bankrupt, that it would be bought out of bankruptcy.  It has to be, the protocol is not worthless and there are creditors that demand to get as much money back as possible. 

My hopes would be the following:

1) They do not abandon the current line.  The backend hardware of the devices can be changed, but the look and feel of the current devices should stay, at least as an option.  There are too many people out there who already have their homes filled with these devices who aren't going to want a mishmash of aesthetic looks.  Furthermore, the current design blends very well with standard decora switches so you don't need to go 100% HA yet maintain a consistent look.

2) I would like to see them license.  I think that licensing will ultimately bring about a bunch of new and exciting products.  No matter how clever and imaginative the people at Insteon are, when you open up the protocol to the whole world, smart and creative people will start coming out of the woodwork with ideas that no one else ever considered.  But I would like to see it done very carefully with a lot of testing requirements for the products.  I don't want to see the protocol reputation diluted by a bunch of junk.  In addition, licensing is a good way to increase cash flow with minimal increase in overhead.

3) I would like to see firmware upgradeable devices.  The current devices appear to be upgradeable should you open them up and connect to the pads.  Obviously they would never sanction that for an end user, but if they released the code as part of a way to program a new design, you probably could hack-it and upgrade the older devices.  For new devices, it might be that you remove the faceplate and then there is a usb jack for flashing new firmware.  I would rather not see any method that can be done over PLC or radio as it would be security threat.

4) Consider dropping the PLC, or at least allow it to be turned off.  It is hard to know for sure, but I think noise on the power lines can drown out the radio signal.  It seems that the radio and PLC share some internal processing and when there is noise it overwhelms the processor so that the radio comm is lost as well.  It seems that the radio protocol is quite robust all on its own and that PLC is more legacy than anything.

5) Bring back all the specialty items.  These are the items that have minimal sales, but land you the whole package.  You might pick the Insteon protocol because it can integrate that unique device that no one else can, and then you buy 100 light switches.  Certainly that worked for me, and I am guarding my io lincs, fan lincs, water sensors, and the like since I am not sure I will ever see new ones of those again.

6) And finally, for God's sake, embrace UD.  The ISY controller is the only reason Insteon got as far as it did under the old management.  I promise you, I would have dumped Insteon after my first purchase but for the ISY and I don't think I am unique in this at all.

[upstatemike]

@apostolakisl

1) I think they need to use the existing line, already UL approved and tooled at the factory, as a quick way to resume cash flow but I think both the look and the feature set will need to be refreshed ASAP to give new customers a reason to consider Insteon.

2) I agree on licensing but it might be hard to find anybody who wants to at this point, especially if there is much of a fee involved. (Of course without the revenue from licensing there is not much reason to do it.)

3) Maybe a compromise is a dealer network that can do firmware upgrades without trying to support the headache of letting end users do it.

4) PLC is the magic bullet that lets you add devices anywhere without "building out" a radio path to remote devices. It is already in the protocol, it just needs to be marketed better. I don't buy the theory that PLC interferance degrades RF communication.

5) Specialty items are great but it is more important for them to get profitable at this point so I don't see them tying up capital in low volume products right away. If they do invest in specialty devices it should be strategic such as a new Fanlinc module that is the size of a Micro Module so you can actually fit it in an existing electrical box. Competing protocols still don't have a viable offering to address the need to control both fan and light in a location that wasn't wired for it.

6) Insteon has always had a "cut off our nose to spite our face" attitude when it comes to UDI. I have always wondered what the real story is behind that and I don't know if things will change. It would also be interesting to know why the UDI purchase  offer was rejected... did this group of "users" really have a better offer? Or was it just "No to UDI no matter what"?

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

4) PLC is the magic bullet that lets you add devices anywhere without "building out" a radio path to remote devices. It is already in the protocol, it just needs to be marketed better. I don't buy the theory that PLC interferance degrades RF communication.

I do.  I had an Deep Fryer that would bring half the house's insteon down.   If your theory is correct, radio should have worked instead.

 

[Athlon]

19 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I do.  I had an Deep Fryer that would bring half the house's insteon down.

Brings a new meaning to one of my wife's favorite phrases: "I fried!"

?

[RPerrault]

31 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I do.  I had an Deep Fryer that would bring half the house's insteon down.   If your theory is correct, radio should have worked instead.

 

so - how do you know - with the deep fryer not in use - that those devices get the rf signals?

 

[MrBill]

10 minutes ago, RPerrault said:

so - how do you know - with the deep fryer not in use - that those devices get the rf signals?

 

If the deep fryer was plugged in, most of Insteon was at a stand still.   It was used for exactly one thing... making chips on mexican night so 99% of the time it was unplugged.  Plug it in and Insteon didn't work, Radio or PLC.  Plenty of dual band devices everywhere.

[RPerrault]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

@apostolakisl

...

6) Insteon has always had a "cut off our nose to spite our face" attitude when it comes to UDI. I have always wondered what the real story is behind that and I don't know if things will change. It would also be interesting to know why the UDI purchase  offer was rejected... did this group of "users" really have a better offer? Or was it just "No to UDI no matter what"?

farthome/fartlabs is not selling off their assets

lienholders and bankruptcy court would be interested if the liquidator breached their fiduciary responsibility by doing that

 

[upstatemike]

53 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I do.  I had an Deep Fryer that would bring half the house's insteon down.   If your theory is correct, radio should have worked instead.

 

If the radio was in range it should have. PLC was probably bridging two areas that were out of radio range with each other so when the PLC got squashed the only path was broken. You could build out with more dual band devices just as you would with RF only stuff or get a filter for the deep fryer to keep it from causing problems.

[RPerrault]

1 minute ago, MrBill said:

If the deep fryer was plugged in, most of Insteon was at a stand still.   It was used for exactly one thing... making chips on mexican night so 99% of the time it was unplugged.  Plug it in and Insteon didn't work, Radio or PLC.  Plenty of dual band devices everywhere.

my point was - there is no way of knowing if those devices ever get or respond to rf signals

insteon - like many of these ha devices - do not have tools to monitor communications

my theory is the 'buy more - robust - build the mesh' routine is profitable for them 

problem resolution by guessing is how i fix problems on a car engine - try this sensor - now this part - with enough guessing i generally stumble onto something that works

 

[upstatemike]

4 minutes ago, RPerrault said:

my point was - there is no way of knowing if those devices ever get or respond to rf signals

insteon - like many of these ha devices - do not have tools to monitor communications

my theory is the 'buy more - robust - build the mesh' routine is profitable for them 

problem resolution by guessing is how i fix problems on a car engine - try this sensor - now this part - with enough guessing i generally stumble onto something that works

 

OK but looking at the technolgy description:

https://www.insteon.com/technology

I don't see how a PLC problem can kill the RF signal.

I also think there are some communication diagnostics, it just depends on how they are implemented in the controller. If you don't like the ones in ISY take a look at the Homeseer plugin which offers some different diagnostic tools.

[MrBill]

6 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

If the radio was in range it should have. PLC was probably bridging two areas that were out of radio range with each other so when the PLC got squashed the only path was broken. You could build out with more dual band devices just as you would with RF only stuff or get a filter for the deep fryer to keep it from causing problems.

Some Facts:  EVERY switch in my house is Dual Band (Probably close to 75 of them).  I also have a number of RF only Devices such as Door Sensors and mini-remotes.   Range for RF is not a problem: I have a mailbox sensor that is a good 50-60 feet from the nearest dual band switches.  I also use a mini-remote for various Functions from the pool equipment pad.  Nearest dual band device is about 35 feet. 

Plug that deep fryer in and only Insteon on the other phase worked.  Dual band switches that were plenty close to another dual band switch would not work. 

Radio and PLC are somehow linked in a way that power line noise takes out Radio.

[Wes Westhaver]

 

3 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

And finally, for God's sake, embrace UD.  The ISY controller is the only reason Insteon got as far as it did under the old management.  I promise you, I would have dumped Insteon after my first purchase but for the ISY and I don't think I am unique in this at all.

This! ^^^^^^^

[lilyoyo1]

19 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

OK but looking at the technolgy description:

https://www.insteon.com/technology

I don't see how a PLC problem can kill the RF signal.

I also think there are some communication diagnostics, it just depends on how they are implemented in the controller. If you don't like the ones in ISY take a look at the Homeseer plugin which offers some different diagnostic tools.

The RF is tied to the power line signal. With that said, the power line signal travels faster than the RF so RF only will be a tad slower. 

[Techman]

The attached email was sent out yesterday by Ken Fairbanks at Smarthome. Note that he includes a link for your feedback and comments.

His email offers some clarification on the direction the Company is taking.

Ken Fairbanks.pdf

[apostolakisl]

37 minutes ago, RPerrault said:

my point was - there is no way of knowing if those devices ever get or respond to rf signals

insteon - like many of these ha devices - do not have tools to monitor communications

my theory is the 'buy more - robust - build the mesh' routine is profitable for them 

problem resolution by guessing is how i fix problems on a car engine - try this sensor - now this part - with enough guessing i generally stumble onto something that works

 

It isn't hard to prove a device is working on RF.  Like many of us here, I have a bench test jig for my Insteon devices and it plugs into the wall.  What I have done is plug it into a UPS that is itself unplugged and you now know if the device communicates, it must be by rf.  And indeed, I have discovered a dead radio on a PLM that I recapped.  No idea if I caused it when doing the recap or if it was unrelated.  

But anyway, 75 dual band devices, you can be pretty confident that unless the house is massive and the devices are all spread out, that the devices are, by and large, all in radio range.

[upstatemike]

33 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Some Facts:  EVERY switch in my house is Dual Band (Probably close to 75 of them).  I also have a number of RF only Devices such as Door Sensors and mini-remotes.   Range for RF is not a problem: I have a mailbox sensor that is a good 50-60 feet from the nearest dual band switches.  I also use a mini-remote for various Functions from the pool equipment pad.  Nearest dual band device is about 35 feet. 

Plug that deep fryer in and only Insteon on the other phase worked.  Dual band switches that were plenty close to another dual band switch would not work. 

Radio and PLC are somehow linked in a way that power line noise takes out Radio.

Interesting. I guess there is a link. I'm still not in favor of RF only over dual band though. 

[upstatemike]

@Techman No mention of communicating through a Smarthome forum. I wonder if they are going to bring that back?

[apostolakisl]

36 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

OK but looking at the technolgy description:

https://www.insteon.com/technology

I don't see how a PLC problem can kill the RF signal.

I also think there are some communication diagnostics, it just depends on how they are implemented in the controller. If you don't like the ones in ISY take a look at the Homeseer plugin which offers some different diagnostic tools.

But it is.  @MrBill has an experience that I have also seen and I have seen it on this forum elsewhere.  I suspect that the rf and PLC feed the same processor and noise on the PLC overwhelms and crashes it.  Kind of like a DOS attack. 

I would be interested to know what happens if @MrBill uses a device that is on the problem phase that is linked to a device on the non-problem phase.  Assuming the issue is overwhelmed processing of the input, then output should be unaffected and radio from the device on the noisy phase should still control a device not overwhelmed by bad input on the non-noisy phase.  Then test the opposite.

[Techman]

@upstatemike

At this point in time they have provided a direct link, so at least you know you'll be heard

Edited June 12, 2022 by Techman

[RPerrault]

34 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

OK but looking at the technolgy description:

https://www.insteon.com/technology

I don't see how a PLC problem can kill the RF signal.

I also think there are some communication diagnostics, it just depends on how they are implemented in the controller. If you don't like the ones in ISY take a look at the Homeseer plugin which offers some different diagnostic tools.

the controller can report what it sees and made available by the protocol

with network problems - for problem isolation - a tool for powerline and rf communications that captures traffic would solve lots of problems without the guessing and theories - like a sniffer or wireshark

that is not the responsibility of ud to make one - i am npt bashing ud or insteon 

someone posted a thread on how to make your own rf antenna that can capture the rf signals - i think it can provide some formatting too - and i suppose an oscilloscope could capture powerline signals 

it would be interesting to see the traffic