Elk Installation question

[MarkJames]

This isn't ISY related - I just hoped someone here might be able to help me out before I go buying cable and such.

 

I have an Elk M1G system that I recently installed. It's connected to 3 keypads in the house and a bunch of contacts and motion sensors. I want to use the zone functionality to connect keypads and contacts in other buildings, too, and I'm not entirely sure how to proceed.

 

The buildings I want to add alarm function to are a garage, a guest house, a pool house, a dockhouse, and a second, smaller garage.

 

The main garage is about 50 feet from the house. I want to have garage door contacts, man-door contacts, and a keypad in there.

 

Down in the back yard I basically want motion sensors in each of the buildings and keypads in each of them as well. The closest building is the guest house and then the other 3 buildings are anywhere from 50-200 ft from that building.

 

I'm not sure if I have to run cat5 to each separate building as a home run to the Elk OR if I can run cat5 to the garage as a home run because it's near the house then a second home run to the guest house and have a hub there. Then run separate runs from the guest house to the other buildings. Obviously that would be a lot less wire to run - I'm just not so familiar with the Elk hubs that I know if I can start adding keypads and contacts wherever I want.

 

Any help with this would be much appreciated.

 

mark

[brad77]

I haven't done this, but I can add my thoughts based on what I know of my Elk setup. First off, check the following documenation if you haven't already:

 

Elk M1 Installation Manual - bottom of page 7

Elk M1 Databus Hub Installation Manual - page 2

Elk M1 Keypad Installation Manual - bottom of page 2

 

Note the wiring diagrams for connecting devices. You'll want to use a databus hub (or more than one). You can run all of your devices to the hub, then run port one of the hub to your Elk M1's RS-485 data bus terminals. The hub can be located in a different part of your house if it's convenient. Additionally, you can daisy chain multiple 8-port hubs together if necessary. I do not know if you can plug a hub into another hub "hub-and-spoke" style, but since it isn't mentioned, I doubt it. Plug keypads, zone expanders, wireless receivers, etc. into the hub. Cable runs shouldn't exceed 4000 feet.

 

You hook up multiple home runs into the RS-485 data bus on the M1, but it is not ideal. My experience is that once more than two terminated devices are hooked up to the bus, communication with those devices becomes less reliable. Running everything through a hub takes care of that for you.

 

Hope that helps.

[MarkJames]

Thanks, Brad,

 

That's sort of what I had in mind - running a homerun to a hub in one of the buildings and then running from there to each building separately. I was just unsure what I was going to use for the door contacts and motion sensors to connect to at the end of each spoke. I use the databus hub already for my keypads - it's a very nice way to hook them up nice and tidily.

 

The installation diagram looks like if I was to use the data hub I'd run cat5/6 from the box to the building but at that point I'm not sure if I can add another hub. The diagram shows connecting data hubs together using 10" or less cables so I don't know if I can stick another hub that far away.

 

I had thought that I would run from the m1dbh in the elk box (call that m1dbhA) to another m1dbh in one of the buildings (call that m1dbhB). From there I'd connect an m1x1n to m1dbhB to handle the contacts in that building, plug a keypad into m1dbhB, and run another cat5 cable from M1dbhB to the next building where I'd have m1dbhC and do the same thing yet again.

 

This could get costly - no - this WOULD get costly - and I wonder if I'm not better off going wireless but the documentation for that is really bad.

 

mark

[brad77]

I see. It sounds like you need to know whether you can use a long wire run when daisy chaining your hubs. That would be a question for the Elk forums (or by calling them up).

 

I use the ELK-M1XRF2G wireless receiver for GE sensors in my home, and have found that range can be an issue. The advertised range for the wireless receiver is 300-1000 feet (line of sight), but my experience has been much less. Perhaps my receiver isn't located optimally or I'm experiencing some interference, but I have had issues with a sensor at around 100 feet. Your mileage may vary.

 

Wireless sensors are more expensive as well. Any GE Crystal sensor will work, and they tend to run about $50-60 per contact sensor and over $100 for glass break or motion sensors. Depending on how many sensors you need in each location, you may find the cost to be a wash. However, there is something to be said for the ease of installing the wireless sensors as opposed to running wires.

 

Of course, even if you opt for wireless you'll still need to home run your keypads.

[MarkJames]

Depending on how many sensors you need in each location, you may find the cost to be a wash. However, there is something to be said for the ease of installing the wireless sensors as opposed to running wires.

 

Of course, even if you opt for wireless you'll still need to home run your keypads.

 

 

ahhh... I hadn't thought of that - no wireless keypads. I remember finding that out when I first started enquiring into Elk.

 

The other thing that concerns me with wireless is the issue of changing batteries all the time. With a good quality 9v costing $3-4 I could see a supervised wireless device costing a LOT over time. Has battery life/cost been an issue for you?

 

Do you use the remote keyfobs at all? I understand they can be used for remote arm/disarm.

 

mark

[brad77]

You won't be changing batteries. These sensors use very long life batteries. Here are some examples:

 

GE Wireless Micro Recessed Door/Window Sensor GENX458

GE NetworX Wireless Micro Door/Window Sensor GENX45

GE NetworX Wireless Long-Life Door/Window Sensor GENX65L

 

Depending on the model, battery life is advertised from 5 to 20 years. The shorter life sensor uses a coin cell battery while the other longer lasting sensors (15-20 years) need to be sent to GE for replacement. The recessed sensor's battery is permanent so I don't think that can be replaced.

 

I spoke to a gentleman at Home Controls who recommended this sensor. It's a very small recessed sensor that uses coin cells with an advertised 5+ year battery life. At $30, it's also less expensive. I will probably try a couple on some additional windows as it's got a pigtail antenna.

 

I've been using my system for about a year now and while I've had to replace the batteries on my INSTEON motion sensors, my alarm sensors haven't been a problem. I don't use any wireless motion sensors with my Elk...at least not yet. This only requires 2 AA batteries and appears to last 3-4 years.

 

I do not use a keyfob with my system, so I'm not sure how they work.

[IndyMike]

Hi Mark,

 

From my count, you are trying to cover an additional 5 buildings with both keypads and sensors. It also sounds like you have one RS-485 port left on your existing M1DBHR.

 

While the M1DBHR can be placed in series, I am not sure why you want to place separate units in each of your outbuildings.

 

You can add a second M1DBHR in your existing enclosure (in parallel with the first). This would give you a total of 5 home-run interfaces to your outbuildings. Each home run can support a keypad and m1XIM zone interface (these can be in series or parallel).

 

It's a lot more Cat5, but far less expensive than individual hubs. You will need to be careful about the total current draw of the Keypads and connected sensors. You may (likely) need to add a separate 12 V supply to the second M1DMHR.

[MarkJames]

Thanks for the reply,

 

I guess the biggest reason for the branching method that I wanted to employ was the distance to the buildings.

 

The garage is only 50 feet from the house but I'll need to run nearly 200ft of cat 5 to get to it

 

The guest house is about an equal length run

 

From the guest house to the furthest building is about 200 more feet making it nearly 400ft from the main house

 

From the guest house to each of the other buildings is about 100 feet - making it 300 feet from the main house.

 

I guess I'm just trying to avoid running somewhere near 2000 feet of cat5, though as you pointed out that would be considerably cheaper. I can source cmx outdoor rated cat5e for $120/1000ft.

 

So what you're saying then is I could add a second databus in my main box and then run home runs to each of the buildings with an m1xIN in each one to handle the contacts/sensors? I believe I can connect a keypad this way as well, right?

 

It could be that running a boatload of wire is the correct choice. I was a little concerned by the 4000 ft max limit for the rs485 but as I add things up I should be half that plus what's in the main house - nowhere near 4000 ft.

 

mark

[brad77]

I hadn't been aware of the M1DBHR (databus hub for retrofit). That's good to know about.

 

A couple points of clarity:

 

- The M1DBH and M1DBHR are different. Check them out here.

- If you home run each building, you can home run each keypad as well or hook it up in series with your M1XIN. The keypad won't hook into a zone expander

 

4000 feet is three quarters of a mile. That's a lot of wire. If you're home running each building, I can't imagine that ever being a problem for you.

[MarkJames]

Yes - I saw the M1DBHR when I initially made my order. It only has 4 ports but in this case each port can daisychain an m1xIN AND a keypad. That may be an option.

 

I wonder, though, if a similar arrangement couldn't be done with an M1DBH as there are unused data lines running to the keypad.

 

I dread the thought of running 5 home runs for keypads and another 5 home runs for m1x1n's. Mind you, if I plan it right, I could probably use some of the unused pairs in each keypad homerun to connect the sensors and not have to use all those home runs.........

 

I think this is worth asking of the Elk techies... it could be the difference between running 3000 ft of wire and less than 1000.

 

mark

[brad77]

You don't have to home run both the M1XIN and the keypad. You can hook them up in a series. Refer to the wiring diagram in the keypad PDF I originally linked. One home run can connect to your M1XIN (non-terminated), then be daisy-chained to your keypad (terminated).

 

Only one length of wire is necessary for that. No need to split up the pairs in your CAT 5.

[IndyMike]

Brad and Mark,

 

I'm sorry, but I'm answering out of sequence. It seems appropriate due to the questions (valid) that Brad raised.

 

I hadn't been aware of the M1DBHR (databus hub for retrofit). That's good to know about.

 

A couple points of clarity:

 

- The M1DBH and M1DBHR are different. Check them out here.

- If you home run each building, you can home run each keypad as well or hook it up in series with your M1XIN. The keypad won't hook into a zone expander

 

4000 feet is three quarters of a mile. That's a lot of wire. If you're home running each building, I can't imagine that ever being a problem for you.

 

I was unaware of the M1DBH (we're even). It appears to be a modification of the M1DBHR that includes individual RJ-45 jacks for the "home runs". The number of home runs is the same ( although this is a bit difficult to achieve with the M1DHDR since you are splitting the cable into two sets of four wires. In the end, it's a convenience factor (and a pretty good one). It appears to be a little less flexible in that is does not allow daisy chained devices on a branch (I'm not clear on why).

 

Thanks for the reply,

 

I guess I'm just trying to avoid running somewhere near 2000 feet of cat5, though as you pointed out that would be considerably cheaper. I can source cmx outdoor rated cat5e for $120/1000ft.

 

So what you're saying then is I could add a second databus in my main box and then run home runs to each of the buildings with an m1xIN in each one to handle the contacts/sensors? I believe I can connect a keypad this way as well, right?

 

It could be that running a boatload of wire is the correct choice. I was a little concerned by the 4000 ft max limit for the rs485 but as I add things up I should be half that plus what's in the main house - nowhere near 4000 ft.

 

mark

 

I have the M1HDR and four home run keypads. I have not added the M1XIN as yet (plan to soon). I'm simply going by the installation diagrams (no first hand experience).

 

The 4000 ft limit is due to the capacitance of the interconnecting wiring. There may be a significant difference between running a "branch" in parallel vs series (a parallel branch may be 2x capacitance), check with ELK to be sure. There may also be a significant difference in the type of wiring used (flat-4, cat5, etc). In any case, you are comfortably under the max. It may be a good idea to contact ELK if you envision any future expansion.

 

IM

[MarkJames]

You don't have to home run both the M1XIN and the keypad. You can hook them up in a series. Refer to the wiring diagram in the keypad PDF I originally linked. .

 

Right...sorry - I wasn't clear in my last post - I meant that you could do this - connect them in series - with the M1DBHR but, for some reason, not with the RJ45 style hub. I was wondering if that was, indeed, a limitation of the hub or if just wasn't included as an option even though it exists.

 

It looks like the M1DBHR may be the better choice if you can daisy chain both a keypad and m1xIN off each of the 4 ports. The total devices stays the same between the RJ45 style and the screw terminal style - just the method changes and in this case the daisychaining method may be a better alternative.

 

 

Mark

[IndyMike]

I just had a look at the link the Brad posted on the M1DBH. They are performing all terminations at the Hub with this device. As a result, your communication lines (Green and White at a Keypad) are running out and back to the Hub.

 

Quote:

Maximum "TOTAL" Length of the M1 RS-485 Data Bus should NOT exceed 4000 feet. When calculating the total length, figure the length of each home run to the M1DBH times 2 (x 2) since the data lines run out and back. Maximum number of data bus devices varies by control.)

 

You should still be able to daisy chain with this setup. Rather than returning from the first device in the daisy chain, you would return from the second. I'm not sure which lines are the returns. You would definitely want to know this so you could balance the two outgoing signal lines (length = capacitance).

 

It's a convenient setup, but you are effectively using 2x the cable length of the M1DBHR.

[brad77]

Quick update: I received the GE version of this sensor and installation was a breeze. It's nice to have a relatively tiny, inexpensive sensor. They also have user-replaceable coin cell batteries that should last about 5 years.

 

I'll likely be using these in the future as I expand my system.

[MarkJames]

That sensor is VERY cool, Brad.

 

What do you need to add to your Elk in order to use these? I could see putting those all over the place and integrating them with my ISY.

[brad77]

Yeah. I've got a couple of these on back order as well. I ended up calling iON with a question and was quickly able to speak with an individual who was very helpful.

 

Keep in mind they these sensors have a seven inch pigtail antenna, so you need a place to put it (like inside a window frame or between a door jamb and its frame).

 

To add these to your system, you need a wireless receiver. I use the M1XRF2G. All you then need to do is enter the sensor's TX code into the Elk RP software to register it in the system. There's another enrollment process that you can do via the keypad, but I'm not familiar with how that works.

 

I'm eagerly anticipating UDI's Elk module. Until then, I'll have to rely on the Elk's rules engine for programming. It works great, but as you probably already know it's severely memory constrained, so there isn't much room for a lot of programs.

[MarkJames]

I made a couple of potential diagrams for my layout - I was hoping you guys could comment and see if you can see a better way. In both diagrams blue represents cat5 and red represents 22gauge alarm wire. For purposes of scale, from the house to the boathouse is roughly 250-300 feet

 

In both ways I run cat5 to the workshop along with some 22gauge alarm wire for the door contacts and smoke detector.

 

In this way I run cat5 to each of the outbuildings for the keypads. In the guest house I put a keypad daisychained to an M1XIN. Then I return all the contacts and sensors only as far as the guesthouse connecting them to the m1xIN

 

 

 

In this second version I run cat5 to guesthouse keypad, then keep daisychaining to an M1XIN, and on to the keypads in each of the other buildings. Then I run 22gauge wire alongside each of the runs between the keypads bringing all the contacts back to the M1XIN in the guest house.

 

This uses less wire, by far

 

 

Any comments whether one way is better than the other or if you can suggest yet another way I hadn't thought of?

 

thanks,

 

mark

[brad77]

In this second version I run cat5 to guesthouse keypad, then keep daisychaining to an M1XIN, and on to the keypads in each of the other buildings. Then I run 22gauge wire alongside each of the runs between the keypads bringing all the contacts back to the M1XIN in the guest house.

If my understanding is correct, all door contacts and smoke detectors need to be run to the M1XIN. You can run the wiring from house to house in the same cable bundle, but those contacts can't be daisy chained. I think that you're planning to daisy chain the keypads, but not the 22-gauge wire connections. Is that correct?

 

Unless an expert chimes in with a reason why it won't work, I think that you're onto something with the second option. In either case, you may want to consider including some extra lengths of 22-gauge wire to be run to each outbuilding to make room for an additional sensor or two down the line (such as a glass break sensor). Doing so now would probably be a lot easier than sometime down the road.

[MarkJames]

If my understanding is correct, all door contacts and smoke detectors need to be run to the M1XIN. You can run the wiring from house to house in the same cable bundle, but those contacts can't be daisy chained. I think that you're planning to daisy chain the keypads, but not the 22-gauge wire connections. Is that correct?

 

 

That's exactly right.... I was thinking I could start off with something like 16 conductor 22gauge from the M1XIN and then go progressively smaller as I get to the end of the line. You're right about adding extra wire - there never seems to be enough of that these days. I'm going to be running siamese for security cameras at the same time so I'd have to size conduit for all the necessary cables.

 

You tweaked my interest with the wireless contacts. That set me off on a path of daisychaining a wireless receiver inline but the thing is that the keypads still need to be hardwired. I'd considered the option of keyfob disarm but that would be a p.i.t.a when you get there and don't have a keyfob. It would still make life much easier, though, as far as installing door contacts and such into a finished building - it would be a lot easier to drill a hole, take off the door casing to install the pig tail and shazam! I'm gonna have to do some research on this. If I could put the receiver somewhere near the middle then 100-150ft line of sight with no obstacles in the way should be fairly reliable, I would think.

 

Man, this would be a lot easier with new construction!

[IndyMike]

Hello Mark,

 

Configuration 1 obviously consumes a lot of wire, and I assume, requires a lot more digging. I'm not sure whether you are using the MIDBH or the M1DBHR for this.

 

If you are planning on the M1DBH, you will need to consider the total length of the communication line (in and outside the main house).

 

The M1DBHR is an active interface (it isolates the M1 panel from the cable length). As such, it can support 4000 feet downstream (you're comfortably within this).

 

Configuration 1 allows you maximum flexibility (you could add additional M1XIN at the outbuildings as well as other devices). It also isolates you somewhat from common mode failures (sorry, I'm aerospace and am always thinking in terms of failure modes).

 

For configuration 2, I'm assuming that you're using the M1DBHR at the panel. I'm not sure what type of wire you're planning on running. Cat5/6 can support two separate communication channels (two separate groups of 4 wires). That being the case, you could use the first set of four wires to support the guest house, and the second set to support the remaining buildings.

 

Cat5/6 is not required for this install. The communication (RS-485) can be supported with simple 4-wire twisted pair cable. If you do not plan on using all 8 wires in the Cat5/6, try 4-wire instead and save some money. Be sure that whatever you wind up with is rated for underground/UV exposure.

 

All of the connection diagrams that I've seen have the disclaimer "Max. devices vary by product". I am not sure if this is in reference to communication loading or current draw. Whatever configuration you wind up with, run it past ELK support.

 

As Brad indicated, since you wanted "Zones" you need to run a cable bundle to your contacts/smoke detectors. Most smokes are 4 wire/powered devices. I'd recommend running 4 wire to everything for maximum flexibility down the road.

 

Last comment - pay attention to your total current consumption (keypads, M1DBHR, Smokes and contacts). You may need a separate 12 Vdc supply for the M1DBHR.

 

Observation - Separate garage and workshop - When can I come over to play?

 

IM

[MarkJames]

Well... at the moment there's an M1DBH in the main panel. If I do configuration 2 I was just going to connect on to the main panel as a second feed. One of the install manuals I saw showed that you could do 2 home runs off the main - actually, I think you could do 2 home runs off each of the M1DBHR's too. So 1 would go to the M1DBH and the other down to the guest house.

 

In configuration 1 I'd simply be using the ports on the M1DBH. There are 3 keypads in the house using up 3 of the 9 ports. I could use one for each of the other buildings and 1 for the M1XIN in the guest house without having to buy anything other than the M1XIN to put in the guest house. I didn't show it but I could run a second cat 5 to the guest house for the M1XIN. I ordered 2000 ft of direct burial cat5 so I should have lots

 

It seems to me that digging is pretty much all the same - as I have to go from building to building to building regardless. I wish they'd make wireless keypads!

 

I agree about getting advice from Elk before doing anything here - they might have yet another idea. I posted this in the user forum but no response yet - I'll wait another couple of days and then see if I can get to their tech support guys directly with it.

 

lol - the workshop and garage separate was the reason for buying the property in the first place. I think that's every guy's dream - having a workshop to get away from the family for a while and peacefully saw wood or weld or what have you. Once this project is done I've been looking at a site called rollingballsculpture.com - I'm keen to try my hand at building one of those - as an aerospace guy I bet you'll get a charge out of his site.

[IndyMike]

Mark,

 

I understand configuration 1 with the M1DBH (separate runs to each building). You are taking some "liberties" in the guest house by connecting the Kaypad and M1XIN serially, but this should be OK per the RS485 standard.

 

I'm not sure I understand configuration #2 with a M1DBH. Are you connecting all these devices to one port? If so, that's a bit more than reading between the lines as in configuration #1.

 

The RS-485 standard specifies the interface devices on the communication line. It does not specify the communication protocol, or addressing method used. The following application note shows typical muti-drop applications (figure 9 is applicable): http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/763

 

Workshop/garage data point: My "subdivision" does not allow "outbuildings". While the subdivision was a concession to my better half (and family), I felt the need to compensate for this restriction. My attached garage is over 2500 sq feet (with a lift) and my workroom is below (~2400 Sq foot due to the 12" concrete walls).

 

At one point my builder (also my friend an neighbor) pointed out that the garage/workroom Sq footage exceeded that of the living space. We had an "off-line" discussion on exactly what topics were permissible in "mixed" company.

 

I was only half kidding about the play time. I spend at least one day a week in the neighbors shop (drag racer) playing pool and looking over his latest toys.

 

IM

[MarkJames]

Now I'm the one who's jealous!

 

My workshop is a paltry 800 or so square feet - mostly woodworking tools but recently a Miller Tig Welder. 2500 sq ft for a garage and another 2400 for the shop is serious droolery.

 

In configuration 2 I was going to run from the main panel inputs - not from the m1dbh. The diagram in the installation manual shows that 2 home runs are permitted from the main panel. I didn't see any upper limit on devices so long as it's terminated - so my thought was to just run from the panel to the first keypad to the m1xin to the second keypad to the third keypad to the fourth keypad to termination. From the spec sheet for rs485 you linked to (thanks) it appears that so long as my current draw is reasonable I should have no problem with 5 or 6 devices on one line. I don't know the current draw of an elk keypad but I can't see it being much. I'll consult with Elk as to the number of keypads it's ok to put on one line.

 

mark

 

In configuration 1 using the m1dbh you're right - I showed that inaccurately as you can't daisy chain an m1xin after the keypad. I'd need a second cable running from the m1dbh to the m1xin in the guesthouse - so the guesthouse would get 2 cable runs - or really just one cat5 and separate them into 2 separate sets of 4 at each end with rj45 connectors custom made to reflect the wiring configuration.

[IndyMike]

Mark,

 

For configuration 2, I'd agree that 5 to 6 devices should be OK according to the RS-485 standard. It's just the ELK note "Max. devices vary by product" that has me a little worried. Not sure if they're doing something "special" here.

 

For configuration 1, I believe you could tack the M1XIN onto the keypad. The M1DBH runs two communication lines out to the devices, then wraps two lines back to the hub where they are terminated. If you run the two outbound lines through the keypad to the M1XIN, and wrap the return lines back from there I think you'll be OK.

 

Now I'm the one who's jealous!

My workshop is a paltry 800 or so square feet - mostly woodworking tools but recently a Miller Tig Welder. 2500 sq ft for a garage and another 2400 for the shop is serious droolery.

 

I haven't told you what I had to give up in moving to this house. I consider the garage and workshop as break even at best.

 

My turn to be jealous - I've always wanted a TIG. I've been making do with a Millermatic 200 MIG for 25 years. Haven't been able to justify the TIG as yet. My next toy will likely be a plasma cutter. Of course, none of that can happen until I get the basement finished (so I'm told). And yes, those who may have been reading, I'm still not finished with the basement. Remember, I'm old and slow (the best of both worlds).

 

IM