Resolution to my PLM/ISY communication errors

[yardman 49]

For those of you who have read my previous posts, you know that I had been experiencing problems with setting up the ISY on my Insteon network. However, I’m happy to report that the recurrent “Communication Errors†that I had been experiencing have been resolved. My device queries now have >98% success rate. And I have been able to fully integrate the ISY into my Insteon network, and am very happy with the results.

 

I will explain here what I have found in the hope that it may benefit others:

 

************************************************************

 

MY SETUP:

 

Small-to-medium size two-story house with a partially finished basement. Few Insteon devices on second floor, many on 1st floor and many in finished basement, including Togglelincs dimmers, Togglelinc relays, In-LineLinc dimmer, KeypadLinc dimmers, LampLincs, Appliancelinc. Legacy X10 devices controlling outside lights, X10 floodlights, plus X10 plug in modules for holidays. Device counts come to about 29 Insteon and 6 to 10 X10 devices(depending on time of year).

 

For supporting devices I have the following: one X10 Signalinc Repeater and two X10 Boosterlincs. Three Insteon AccessPoints. P-in Filterlinc 10A modules for electronic equipment. Leviton wired-in filters in undercabinet lighting. PLC running Houselinc (not using now since getting the ISY working).

 

 

INITIAL PROBLEMS:

 

1. Initially only about 60-70% success rate on status reads on devices through PLM/ISY. But through the PLC/HouseLinc combination, it seemed as though status reads would always work. Same for Insteon device control between devices.

2. After status fails would start, even devices that used to read back would start to fail.

3. When status failures were abundant, control requests would also start failing.

4. Strangely enough, X10 seemed to work just fine, although I didn’t test it extensively as I did with the Insteon devices.

 

 

ATTEMPTS TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS:

 

I tried many different experiments, including:

- different outlets and circuits for the PLM

- “piggy-backing†an AccessPoint on top of the PLM

- moving AccessPoints to different outlets and circuits.

- adding another AccessPoint (for a total of three)

- changing Request Delays

- trying a different version of the PLM (Firm58 beta)

- testing at different times of the day, and with different lights on and off

 

 

Although it would seem that these might work for a few hours, eventually the problems always eventually came back.

Also during this time, I only had a small portion of my devices on the ISY, so that I would not cause problems to my entire network while troubleshooting. So the number of devices being handled by the ISY was quite small.

For those of you that might be wondering, I also removed my X10 Signalinc Repeater and X10 Boosterlincs, but this did not help, so I reinstalled them. Even though they were newer models, and should not have interfered with Insteon signals, I thought that I should test this possibility.

 

 

WHAT ACTUALLY WORKED:

 

1) I moved two of the AccessPoints onto outlets that were close to my main service panel (in the basement). I put one on each leg of my mains. I moved the third AccessPoint to an upstairs bedroom (to provide RF coverage to the second floor). No longer do I "piggy-back" an AccessPoint on top of the PLM. Also, there is no access point now on the same circuit as the PLM.

The reason for this approach was that I remembered something that I had read in a Boosterlinc manual regarding X10 signals:

 

“For homes with widespread signal strength problems, plug the BoosterLinc into the outlet closest to the electrical panel. When combined with a passive phase coupler, the two units will effectively become the equal of a coupler-repeater (sometimes called an amplifier) without the delays and bright/dim issues.â€

 

Although Insteon does not work the same as X10, this gave me the idea that it may be better to keep the AccessPoints closer to the breaker box. Also, as SteveL pointed out in another post, all that is required for successful communication is for the PLM to get a signal to the nearest Insteon device, which will repeat it. So I was hopeful that this would improve PLM communication across my network. This approach seemed to be helpful.

 

2) I added more FilterLincs. Yes, I already had several on my main audio-visual equipment, as well as Leviton noise blocks in my halogen undercounter lighting. I thought that since my devices seemed to communicate well between themselves that my network must be ok. But after I added a filter on the electronic gear in my wife’s office, and another on a 20†LCD television, things really began to work much better with the PLM/ISY.

As a result, I just added another few FilterLincs to my network; I now have all the audio-visual and computer equipment filtered. This has also proved to be very helpful.

 

 

OBSERVATIONS:

 

1) Possibly there is a significant difference between how the PLC/HouseLinc combination works and the PLM combination. The communications log flashes by so quickly on the HouseLinc screen that errors can be missed. I remember that there were indeed times that HouseLinc would seem to get almost “stuck†trying to update changes to my network. But the HouseLinc GUI doesn’t throw up warning boxes, so it would be easy to miss a communication failure in HouseLinc.

2) We know that the current PLMs (starting with Firm52) only put out about 75% of the signal that the previous PLMs did. I tested both the Firm52 and Firm58 beta PLMs, and the results were about the same for both of them.

3) We know that it is not uncommon to have communication issues with Insteon, even though it is supposed to be (and usually is) more robust than X10. On the SmartHome forums, there will be the occasional user who reports severe Insteon communication problems, that often are found to be attributed to CPLs, low voltage lights, etc. Likewise, the number of people is low that are said to be experiencing the types of problems that I was seeing with the PLM/ISY.

4) Keep in mind that not all communication issues are due to “noise†on the power line. Sometimes devices can act as “signal sinks†and absorb the Insteon signal from the power line. So filtering is not just to keep noise off the power line, but also to keep signal out of electronic devices.

 

MORE OBSERVATIONS:

 

1) There may still be some issues with the PLM (other than the reduced PLM power output) or with how the PLM communicates with the ISY that may be contributing to the observed Comm Errors.

2) There is a known bug as of version 2.4.13 that causes an error dialog to persist in the GUI. The result is that if an error box appears during a device query, it may repeat again at the beginning of the next query, even if no error was found. This is being fixed from what I have read.

3) There are some bugs with how Insteon devices are manually added to the ISY. These may occur when either of the first two link handling options are used (“Remove Existing Links†and “Add Devices found in Links and Remove Existing Linksâ€). The result is that if your devices have broken links, and you have chosen either of these methods, the broken links will be imported into the ISY, and you will be none the wiser until you start having problems (sometimes severe!). These have been reported and I’m certain they will be corrected by UD.

 

FINAL THOUGHTS:

 

Now that the Comm Errors have been fixed, I’m very happy with the ISY’s performance. I’ve finally been able to overcome some of the inherent shortcomings with the KPLs through the features offered by the ISY.

Also, the timer control is much, much better than anything I could ever do with the PLC/Essential Timer combination.

 

 

I hope that this will be helpful to someone.

 

 

Best wishes

[MikeB]

Great to hear. The fun really begins when you don't have to worry about communication errors!

[Mark Sanctuary]

Good write-up thanks and good job on figuring out the com errors.

[yardman 49]

Here'a an update on my comm issues:

 

Tonight my son's friend brought over an X-Box that they were playing in the basement. I then started experiencing some very pervasive comm errors on many devices on my system. And when I kept getting repeated errors on the devices, I then could also not control them from the ISY.

 

I guess that if the ISY can't get a response to a query, it won't be able to control the Insteon unit properly also.

 

I couldn't unplug the X-Box at the time, so I pulled out a fourth AccessPoint that I had handy (I already have three installed in my home) and piggy-backed that on the PLM. That seemed to help the PLM this time (I've never previously had success with this).

 

So, I guess the piggy-backing is useful in some cases.

 

Could it be possible that the PLM can grow even more "deaf" over time, and that's why this time the piggy-backed AP helped?

 

I really would be greatly encouraged if SmartHome could fix this problem with the PLMs. Especially since control between their switches seem to work very well in my setup. One would hope that they could get communication between the devices and the PLM to work just as well.

[Sub-Routine]

Was everything back to "normal" after the X Box was unplugged?

[Brian H]

I have two of the now defunct SocketLinc Dimmer Modules. One is on the same branch circuit as an AccessPoint. When power is on the module; the AccessPoints LED shows constant noise. An ELK ESM-1 meter shows no bars <.1 V though a Smarthome TesterLinc on the 120Khz test display shows a constant 2 to 4 hits per sample. This is even with NO bulb in the SocketLinc Dimmer and my Insteon gets unstable if the SocketLinc Dimmer is powered; bulb on or off no difference in noise. I have had to remove it. Also is seems the AccessPoints Powerline receiver is extra touchy; as a normal ApplianceLinc or Lamplinc show no LED flashing or a 2414S/U PLC.

[yardman 49]

Was everything back to "normal" after the X Box was unplugged?

 

Hello Rand:

 

Yes, everything is now "back to normal". I now have the XBox running through the same Filterlinc that my home theater runs on. This seems to make things happy. So I've told my son to make certain that he plugs into the multitap on the Filterlinc the next time that his friend brings over the XBox.

 

But I've left the fourth AccessPoint on top of the PLM for now, just to be on the safe side. So I could pull off the AP, which would take me back to my original configuration. I may try this some time.

 

But since leaving the AccessPoint on the PLM seemed to help even when the XBox was still unfiltered, I figured that for now I may just stay with the "piggy-backed" configuration.

 

I just heard from Michel that the new rev 61 PLM seems to be much better than the 52/56/58 series. So I'm going to call Smarthome and as them for an exchange with my 52 unit (I'm currently using a refurbed 58 ).

 

 

 

Best wishes,

[MikeB]

I really would be greatly encouraged if SmartHome could fix this problem with the PLMs.

 

I'd like to see a future PLM with an RF AcessPoint built-in. As Insteon gains more RF devices, I think it would only make sense.

[Guest]

I really would be greatly encouraged if SmartHome could fix this problem with the PLMs.

 

I'd like to see a future PLM with an RF AcessPoint built-in. As Insteon gains more RF devices, I think it would only make sense.

 

I suggested that last week and someone told me it was not possible ( I forget who) saying the new PLM's are already packed to the rim. But you are probably right that it would help tremendously.

 

To maximize reliability the RF portion should probably play a bigger role in the communications to get around powerline noise. But as some people have dais they have to be worried about the Lutron (I think) patent.

[MikeB]

I suggested that last week and someone told me it was not possible ( I forget who) saying the new PLM's are already packed to the rim. But you are probably right that it would help tremendously.

 

Then I say make a bigger box. Or super glue them both together, and sell them as a single product.

 

Actually, that might be a good idea.... I could go into business and sell the 1st Insteon RF-enabled PLM!

[Guest]

I suggested that last week and someone told me it was not possible ( I forget who) saying the new PLM's are already packed to the rim. But you are probably right that it would help tremendously.

 

Then I say make a bigger box. Or super glue them both together, and sell them as a single product.

 

Actually, that might be a good idea.... I could go into business and sell the 1st Insteon RF-enabled PLM!

 

GO FOR IT!!!!! Seriously if you could you might make a pretty penny. All kidding aside you might want to think about it. You are a smart guy and I bet you could pull it off if you have the time to put into it.

[yardman 49]

Hello all:

 

I just posted the following updates on Communication Errors to the UDI User Guide on the Wiki, under the "Troubleshooting" category:

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

 

Communication Problems with Some Devices

 

The Insteon protocol is a much more robust communication protocol than the older X10 protocol that it replaces. However, Insteon users will sometimes find that their Insteon devices seem to communicate reliably between themselves, but that the ISY-26 will report "Communication Errors" on their power line network. There are multiple reasons for this:

 

- The SmartHome PLM that is utilized by the ISY-26 can be less tolerant of weak Insteon signals and power line "noise" (interference) than the Insteon switches themselves.

- The ISY-26 and PLM require reliable "acknowledgements" of their "requests" to the Insteon devices. When not properly received for any reason, the ISY-26 will display an error. Sometimes this will prevent the completion of an ISY function.

 

Due to these two characteristics, a power line network must be as free as possible from substantial interference or signal loss, in order for the ISY-26 to provide error-free Insteon device monitoring and control.

 

 

The following tips may be helpful if communication problems are encountered:

 

- Use two SmartHome AccessPoints to improve network communications. Place these on opposite legs (sometimes called “phasesâ€) of the power line mains. The AccessPoints provide their own internal utility to determine if they are on opposite legs of the powerline mains. (The older SignaLincs can be used for the same purpose.)

- Place the two AccessPoints as close to the power line mains breaker or fuse box as possible. This will give any received signals the best chance of being propagated back throughout entire powerline network. This can provide a dramatic improvement in some cases. Again, be certain that the AccessPoints are placed on opposite legs of the power line mains.

- Stack or “piggy-back†an additional AccessPoint on top of the PLM to improve network communications. The use of a stacked AccessPoint can improve Insteon signal strength to enable the PLM to better receive and send signals. Many users have reported that this is an effective solution. It may help to add this as an additional (third) AccessPoint in addition to the previously mentioned two AccessPoints.

- Do not plug a PLM into a power strip that has any type of surge-suppression incorporated, as this can weaken the Insteon signals. Likewise, certain models of GFCI outlets have also been reported to degrade Insteon signals (this, however, is not true for all GFCIs). To provide for surge protection for the PLM, ISY, and all of your Insteon devices, consider using a "whole house" surge suppressor. This can often be supplied and installed by your electric power utility for a minimal charge.

 

 

The next points are probably some of the most important:

 

- Use power line filtering devices (such as the SmartHome Filterlinc) on all potential signal “sinks†and noise generating devices in your home. Devices such as computer power supplies, televisions, home theater systems, etc, can all act as “signal sinks†that degrade the Insteon signals on your power line network. Conversely, devices such as low voltage halogen lighting, CFLs (compact fluorescent light bulbs), etc, can generate interference patterns on your power line network that can cause the PLM or even other Insteon devices to miss Insteon control signals, which get lost in the background noise on the power line. Even if you have previously installed some power line filters on your system, you may find that more may be required if problems still persist. Also, remember that the bottom outlet on the FilterLinc is the “filtered†outlet.

- For hard-wired halogen lighting, in-line noise suppressors can be used (such as the Levition Noise Block model 6287).

- Some CFLs are prone to producing much higher levels of powerline noise than others. CFLs that are producing excessive line noise can be replaced with those that produce less interference.

 

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

As myself and others will most likely continue to refine and add to this information, please use the following link to access this topic on the Wiki for the most current information:

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/mwiki/index.php?title=ISY-26_Insteon:Communication_Troubleshooting

 

 

Best wishes,

[MikeB]

Great writeup Frank!

[Mark Sanctuary]

Since this is Communication Troubleshooting I moved the page to reflect that naming.

 

Very good write-up!

[yardman 49]

Since this is Communication Troubleshooting I moved the page to reflect that naming.

 

Very good write-up!

 

 

Thanks, Mike and Mark.

 

Mark: I guess that you and I are making edits simultaneously. Thanks for fixing the title of the page. I noticed that even though Michel, and then myself, had changed the link title on the User Guide page, the title on the Communication Troubleshooting page was still remaining just "Troubleshooting". Thanks for fixing that so quickly!

 

I guess that only select editors can change the document titles. This has been my first attempt at Wiki editing, so I'm a very green newbie at this.

 

Best wishes,

[Mark Sanctuary]

No no anyone can; you just do a move page then go back to the parent page an update the link that points to it. This is the updated Wiki link...

 

[[iSY-26 Insteon:Communication Troubleshooting|Communication Troubleshooting]]

[Algorithm]

Great write-up, Frank!

[eddyk]

Thanks for this solution. I went from several communication issues a day to zero per day. Before I was not able to create large scenes because it always would have an error. I moved the PLM and the 2 access points within 2 feet of my main panel. connected them to to circuits that had the most insteon trouble. All my Insteon communication issues are resolved!

 

Now, X-10 is working but it has about a 1 second delay. I think that the signal from the PLM is to weak to reach my X-10 devices and the X-10 bridge / repeater (also mounted at the breaker panel) has to repeat the signal to get to the X-10 resoponders. Has anyone seen this? will an new PLM fix this?

 

Thanks,

 

Eddy K.

 

 

 

Hello all:

 

I just posted the following updates on Communication Errors to the UDI User Guide on the Wiki, under the "Troubleshooting" category:

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

 

Communication Problems with Some Devices

 

The Insteon protocol is a much more robust communication protocol than the older X10 protocol that it replaces. However, Insteon users will sometimes find that their Insteon devices seem to communicate reliably between themselves, but that the ISY-26 will report "Communication Errors" on their power line network. There are multiple reasons for this:

 

- The SmartHome PLM that is utilized by the ISY-26 can be less tolerant of weak Insteon signals and power line "noise" (interference) than the Insteon switches themselves.

- The ISY-26 and PLM require reliable "acknowledgements" of their "requests" to the Insteon devices. When not properly received for any reason, the ISY-26 will display an error. Sometimes this will prevent the completion of an ISY function.

 

Due to these two characteristics, a power line network must be as free as possible from substantial interference or signal loss, in order for the ISY-26 to provide error-free Insteon device monitoring and control.

 

 

The following tips may be helpful if communication problems are encountered:

 

- Use two SmartHome AccessPoints to improve network communications. Place these on opposite legs (sometimes called “phasesâ€) of the power line mains. The AccessPoints provide their own internal utility to determine if they are on opposite legs of the powerline mains. (The older SignaLincs can be used for the same purpose.)

- Place the two AccessPoints as close to the power line mains breaker or fuse box as possible. This will give any received signals the best chance of being propagated back throughout entire powerline network. This can provide a dramatic improvement in some cases. Again, be certain that the AccessPoints are placed on opposite legs of the power line mains.

- Stack or “piggy-back†an additional AccessPoint on top of the PLM to improve network communications. The use of a stacked AccessPoint can improve Insteon signal strength to enable the PLM to better receive and send signals. Many users have reported that this is an effective solution. It may help to add this as an additional (third) AccessPoint in addition to the previously mentioned two AccessPoints.

- Do not plug a PLM into a power strip that has any type of surge-suppression incorporated, as this can weaken the Insteon signals. Likewise, certain models of GFCI outlets have also been reported to degrade Insteon signals (this, however, is not true for all GFCIs). To provide for surge protection for the PLM, ISY, and all of your Insteon devices, consider using a "whole house" surge suppressor. This can often be supplied and installed by your electric power utility for a minimal charge.

 

 

The next points are probably some of the most important:

 

- Use power line filtering devices (such as the SmartHome Filterlinc) on all potential signal “sinks†and noise generating devices in your home. Devices such as computer power supplies, televisions, home theater systems, etc, can all act as “signal sinks†that degrade the Insteon signals on your power line network. Conversely, devices such as low voltage halogen lighting, CFLs (compact fluorescent light bulbs), etc, can generate interference patterns on your power line network that can cause the PLM or even other Insteon devices to miss Insteon control signals, which get lost in the background noise on the power line. Even if you have previously installed some power line filters on your system, you may find that more may be required if problems still persist. Also, remember that the bottom outlet on the FilterLinc is the “filtered†outlet.

- For hard-wired halogen lighting, in-line noise suppressors can be used (such as the Levition Noise Block model 6287).

- Some CFLs are prone to producing much higher levels of powerline noise than others. CFLs that are producing excessive line noise can be replaced with those that produce less interference.

 

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

As myself and others will most likely continue to refine and add to this information, please use the following link to access this topic on the Wiki for the most current information:

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/mwiki/index.php?title=ISY-26_Insteon:Communication_Troubleshooting

 

 

Best wishes,

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi eddyk,

 

What version of PLM do you have?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Thanks for this solution. I went from several communication issues a day to zero per day. Before I was not able to create large scenes because it always would have an error. I moved the PLM and the 2 access points within 2 feet of my main panel. connected them to to circuits that had the most insteon trouble. All my Insteon communication issues are resolved!

 

Now, X-10 is working but it has about a 1 second delay. I think that the signal from the PLM is to weak to reach my X-10 devices and the X-10 bridge / repeater (also mounted at the breaker panel) has to repeat the signal to get to the X-10 resoponders. Has anyone seen this? will an new PLM fix this?

 

Thanks,

 

Eddy K.

 

[eddyk]

Michel,

 

My PLM is version 2.9 date 8/23. ISY PLM info: E.D9.9 v72

 

Thanks,

 

Eddy K.

 

Hi eddyk,

 

What version of PLM do you have?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

 

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Eddy,

 

You have the latest PLM and thus I must conclude the PLM is not the problem. What happens if you move the PLM closer to your X10 receivers?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

 

Michel,

 

My PLM is version 2.9 date 8/23. ISY PLM info: E.D9.9 v72

 

Thanks,

 

Eddy K.

 

Hi eddyk,

 

What version of PLM do you have?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

 

[eddyk]

Michel,

 

I can't move my PLM closer to the X-10 devices. All my X-10 devices are in the attic (for floodlights) and my PLM is in the mechanical / electrical room in the basement. I did hook up my AT004 PCC multi-Tester. It showed an X-10 signal strength of 1.6 Volt on the PLM without an active booster / coupler. With my active booster / coupler "on" I had 3.8 volt signal strength. Apparently that is needed to travel over 100' of Romex to the X-10 devices in the attic. I can live with this since the only X-10 devices left in my home is these floodlights. Everything else has been coverted over to INSTEON.

 

Thanks again for your support

 

 

Hi Eddy,

 

You have the latest PLM and thus I must conclude the PLM is not the problem. What happens if you move the PLM closer to your X10 receivers?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

 

Michel,

 

My PLM is version 2.9 date 8/23. ISY PLM info: E.D9.9 v72

 

Thanks,

 

Eddy K.

 

Hi eddyk,

 

What version of PLM do you have?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

 

[yardman 49]

Thanks for this solution. I went from several communication issues a day to zero per day. Before I was not able to create large scenes because it always would have an error. I moved the PLM and the 2 access points within 2 feet of my main panel. connected them to to circuits that had the most insteon trouble. All my Insteon communication issues are resolved!

 

Now, X-10 is working but it has about a 1 second delay. I think that the signal from the PLM is to weak to reach my X-10 devices and the X-10 bridge / repeater (also mounted at the breaker panel) has to repeat the signal to get to the X-10 resoponders. Has anyone seen this? will an new PLM fix this?

 

Thanks,

 

Eddy K.

 

Hello Eddy:

That's about what I would get with my X10 signals, about a 1 second delay. It's probably not a PLM problem.

 

This evening I just finished removing the remainder of my x10 devices. I'd finally had enough. For the last couple of years they were working fairly reliably, after a lot of experimentation, BoosterLincs, a SignaLinc Repeater,a bunch of FilterLincs, and moving stuff all around the house circuits to try to optimize the X10 signals. But I must have some new noise-source on my network (or signal suck) that is disrupting my X10 communications, because the last couple of months they have gotten really unreliable.

 

The Insteon communications are much more stable and reliable. So if you can drop your X10 devices, I'd recommend that you do it. If other than the 1 second delay your X10 network is reliable (better than 99%), then I'd probably just live with it. I got used to it with my X10 devices.

 

One last point: keep in mind that Insteon devices themselves act as "signal sucks" for X10 signals. So the more Insteon devices you add, the stronger your Insteon network becomes, but the X10 devices tend to suffer.

 

Best wishes,

[yardman 49]

Hello again Eddy:

 

I just realized that your post was from a year ago. But I'll leave my previous reply up as maybe it will help someone else.

 

SmartHome now has an Insteon floodlight, based on their 2475s2 InLineLincRelay with Sense device. You can use it in place of your X10 floodlights. Or you can just buy their 2475s2, and use it with your own motion controlled floods.

[yardman 49]

Hello all:

 

Although this is common knowledge, I figured that I would throw this out as a reminder: the more INSTEON devices you have in your network, the stronger the network becomes.

 

I now have over 40 devices, and this does indeed seem to born out in my experience.

 

Each INSTEON device acts as a re-broadcaster of INSTEON messages. Three broadcasts ("hops") are allowed for each message. For every broadcast, the hop counter is decremented by one.

 

The more devices that you have, the better coverage for your network, as each device becomes a "rebroadcaster" of that initial data. The more rebroadcasters you have, the stronger the network communications become.

 

So the point is this: although there are things that can degrade an INSTEON network, simply adding more devices will often make it stronger.

 

Best wishes,