A question about theory

[mitch236]

Sorry if this has been covered before but I'm new and need to fully understand how the logic of the programming works.

 

Let's say I have a Scene that contains three Devices. All Devices are SL dimmers. Two of the Devices have a load each which is unique to the Device (they each control a seperate light) and are Responders in the Scene. The third Device does not have a load and is the Controller of the Scene.

 

If I turn one of the Responder Devices On while the other Responder Device is Off, it would seem that the Controller Device would not be either True or False.

 

Where does that leave the Scene? If I were to Query the Controlling Device, what response would I expect? Would I be prone to getting "Cannot Communicate with" errors?

[oberkc]

If I turn one of the Responder Devices On while the other Responder Device is Off, it would seem that the Controller Device would not be either True or False.

 

First, I am not sure that devices have true or false status. They are on or off, dim or bright, etc... Programs can have true or false status.

 

Second, I understand that turning on or off a responder device within a scene will have no effect on other devices within the scene. That is, the status of one device will remain unchanged as a result of the action of another reponder device. If a device (whether responder or controller) was off before another responder within the same scene was changed, it will remain off. If on, it will remain so. etc...

[mitch236]

That makes sense. So if the ISY queries the Controller, it will say its Off (because it wasn't used to turn on the light), and should cause any errors?

 

I'm trying to figure out why I have unusual behaviors in my system. Like I can't write to my KPL unless all the Scenes controlled by the entire KPL are true and that even means the individual devices controlled by the KPL have to be in complete synch with the status of the KPL.

[upstatemike]

First, the scenario you suggest is valid but not common. Normally you would make the switches with the loads controllers of the scene as well as the "no-load" switch so that operating any one of them would control all. (Remember "contoller" really means "controller and responder")

 

Second, the status of the scene is only affected by controllers of that scene. If the "no-load" switch is the only controller then it is the only thing that controls the scene status. Operating the switches configured as responders would have no impact on the status of the scene (even though the state of devices in the scene has obviously changed.)

 

The controller device in this case Does have a state but it is in relation to the load of that switch. Just because you do not have anything connected to the load wires does not mean the load output does not operate. If all the switches are set as controllers then turning on any one of the will turn them all on including the one with no physical load connected. If a switch is set as a responder only then turning it on will only affect the load of that switch and not the others in the scene.

 

There is also a GUI anaomly in that Controlinc and RemoteLinc buttons are shown as devices that are "managed " in a scene but of course this is not really the case. There is no reason for a ControLinc button to know about other ControLinc buttons in a scene since there is no load to turn on or off when the scene is activated or deactivated. I think it would be cleaner to show a Controlinc button managing the loads in a scene without suggesting that anything is managing it. (ie, a ControLinc button can never be a responder)

[oberkc]

That makes sense. So if the ISY queries the Controller, it will say its Off (because it wasn't used to turn on the light), and should cause any errors?

 

If the ISY queries the controller, then it will show whatever state is in. If it was off before you turned on the light, then it will remain off and the query will show this state. I don't expect any errors as a result.

 

Based on the configuration you describe, if you toggle the controller switch, the responder devices should respond. If you toggle one of the responder devices, it will have no effect on the other devices within the scene. Of course, if a load is attached to a device, it will come on if you toggle the switch controlling that load, regardless of whether it is a controller or responder.

 

Second, the status of the scene is only affected by controllers of that scene. If the "no-load" switch is the only controller then it is the only thing that controls the scene status.

 

It is my understanding that the ISY/PLM is also a controller of this (and all) scenes. It can control any scene, even those without a defined controller device.

[MarkJames]

It is my understanding that the ISY/PLM is also a controller of this (and all) scenes. It can control any scene, even those without a defined controller device.

 

That's true - the PLM is a controller for every button, group, load, and scene in the system.

 

There's a long-winded explanation for how controller/responder records works here

[mitch236]

I fully understand everything posted here. My observation is that if there is a controller of a Scene and part of the Scene is on and part if off because of individual switch states, then I can't write anything to those devices until I make the Scene with the Controller true (either all on or off).

[MarkJames]

I fully understand everything posted here. My observation is that if there is a controller of a Scene and part of the Scene is on and part if off because of individual switch states, then I can't write anything to those devices until I make the Scene with the Controller true (either all on or off).

 

you can't 'write anything'? As in make changes to the link records and change the scene memberships?

[oberkc]

I fully understand everything posted here. My observation is that if there is a controller of a Scene and part of the Scene is on and part if off because of individual switch states, then I can't write anything to those devices until I make the Scene with the Controller true (either all on or off).

 

I think I am with MarkJames on this one. Please elaborate. I am not following your thoughts here.

[mitch236]

First let me explain that I don't know how to write anything locally to a device, I started my system with the ISY 99i Pro and have used that since the beginning. When I say I can't write anything to a device, I mean the ISY can't write to a device. In my above simplified example, if the two Responder devices are not in the same state (one is on the other is off), when I make changes to the Scene (like adding a fourth device), the ISY GUI tries to write but leaves the green arrow like symbol meaning there is still something to write to the devices. Once I go to the devices and put them all in the same state (either all on or off), then the ISY writes no problem.

[oberkc]

i have not experienced any problems writing to devices based on device status. I don't recall having seen any green arrow-like symbol, either. A couple of things come to mind, however, based on your post.

 

Once I go to the devices and put them all in the same state

 

I don't think it is necessary to go to each device to put them all in the same state. Could you not do this from the ISY? From the admin panel, choose the scene in question, and toggle it on or off.

 

the ISY GUI tries to write but leaves the green arrow like symbol

 

This is a shot in the dark, but I wonder if this is the batch processing capability in one of the recent software builds. I am currently using 2.7.7, which does not have batch mode as far as I understand. Which version are you using? Is it possible that you have yours set for batch mode and the ISY is waiting for further action on your part before initiating the changes?

 

Another shot in the dark....are you writing to "scenes" or to "programs"? There is a little green symbol when one makes changes to programs. This is an indication of pending changes and one must press the "save" button in order to make the changes permanent.

[MarkJames]

I think oberkc hit it.

 

There are a couple of green icons in 2.7.12 and the previous few releases. One has like a 101 on it - the other says writing. The 101 means that there is a pending write - the writing one - well - is writing.

 

I don't have pro but from what I understand there's a batch write feature. I thought this was mostly intended for RF devices but the impression I got was that it can be used for any.

 

Have you tried rightclicking the device with the green arrow and hit 'write updates'? Or using the batch mode button?

 

I'm with oberkc on this - I don't think that the state of any scene/device matters to it as far as ISY writing to it. If it is it's a behavior I've never seen myself.

[mitch236]

I think oberkc hit it.

 

There are a couple of green icons in 2.7.12 and the previous few releases. One has like a 101 on it - the other says writing. The 101 means that there is a pending write - the writing one - well - is writing.

 

I don't have pro but from what I understand there's a batch write feature. I thought this was mostly intended for RF devices but the impression I got was that it can be used for any.

 

Have you tried rightclicking the device with the green arrow and hit 'write updates'? Or using the batch mode button?

 

I'm with oberkc on this - I don't think that the state of any scene/device matters to it as far as ISY writing to it. If it is it's a behavior I've never seen myself.

 

I think it is the 101 green arrow I see. I know which green arrow oberkc is referring to and that is not the one I am talking about.

 

I have to check if there is any batch mode on. When I'm left with the green arrow (presumably with the 101), if I put all devices to the same state within the Scene that I am changing, I can right click and choose the Write to Device and it will write. If the Devices aren't all in the same state, the green arrow stays.

 

I'm sure I'm doing something wrong but I want to find out what it is!

 

Thanks for your patience!

[MarkJames]

Hi Guys,

 

In PRO version, there's a button which lets you disable any device write to battery operated devices till such time that you deem fit. This way, you can restore your whole system without restoring your battery operated devices. You can then do the battery operated devices last.

 

Sorry.. this is the quote I was referring to from a different post in which Michel mentioned that you could delay writes.

 

In retrospect it doesn't seem to answer your problem.

 

mark

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi mitch236,

 

ISY does not like inconsistencies and that's why it will try its best to write all the pending changes. The main thing that we have to figure out is why the 0101 green arrow does not go away (in all likelihood, it cannot communicate with your device).

 

What I recommend is to take one of those devices, factory reset it, and do a restore on it. If you still see 0101 green arrow, then it means that either that device is defective or that something (noise/signal strength) is preventing ISY to communicate with that device.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[mitch236]

Thank you Michel for your response. I can write to the device. I only have to make sure to have all the devices in the given scene synchronized to the same state. Then everything writes.

 

Your answer makes sense. The ISY doesn't like inconsistencies. That was the answer I was looking for.

 

Thanks again!

[MarkJames]

I'm not sure Michel meant that all your devices have to be in the same 'state' as your scene in order to write.

 

If that were the case I'd never be able to write to any of my switches as they're all members of multiples scenes. They'd never be in sync with one another as far as all the different scenes were concerned.

 

If this is, indeed, the case I'd like to know as it would be a significant change to my understanding.

 

mark

[oberkc]

I'm not sure Michel meant that all your devices have to be in the same 'state' as your scene in order to write

.

 

I came away with this same understanding. And I have the same situation as MarkJames. None of mine are consistently consistent because of multiple scenes with the same devices. I would look again at the rest of the statement:

 

The main thing that we have to figure out is why the 0101 green arrow does not go away (in all likelihood, it cannot communicate with your device).

 

What I recommend is to take one of those devices, factory reset it, and do a restore on it. If you still see 0101 green arrow, then it means that either that device is defective or that something (noise/signal strength) is preventing ISY to communicate with that device.

[mitch236]

I'm not sure Michel meant that all your devices have to be in the same 'state' as your scene in order to write

.

 

I came away with this same understanding. And I have the same situation as MarkJames. None of mine are consistently consistent because of multiple scenes with the same devices. I would look again at the rest of the statement:

 

The main thing that we have to figure out is why the 0101 green arrow does not go away (in all likelihood, it cannot communicate with your device).

 

What I recommend is to take one of those devices, factory reset it, and do a restore on it. If you still see 0101 green arrow, then it means that either that device is defective or that something (noise/signal strength) is preventing ISY to communicate with that device.

 

I got all of his statement. My problem may be caused by the six older Relays I have in my system since almost all of my "Cannot communicate" errors involve those switches or a Scene in which they are a member of. The other common errors in writing involve my one and only KPL which is so finicky that I just make sure to have the entire panel of Groups Off before I try to write to it.

 

None of my Writing difficulties are much of a problem, I just have this drive to fully understand Insteon (the way I learned x-10 previously). Please forgive me if I seem to ask the same questions over and over, its just that I want to master the inner workings of Insteon.

[oberkc]

then I can't write anything to those devices until I make the Scene with the Controller true (either all on or off).

 

and only KPL which is so finicky that I just make sure to have the entire panel of Groups Off before I try to write to it.

 

Originally, I thought it was that your scene had to be in a consistent (either on or off) state. Now I wonder if it must be off in order to succesfully write.

 

It is my understanding that device or scene state, in and of itself, will not prevent the ISY from writing to devices. If you are having trouble writing with devices on, but can write with the devices being off, I cannot help but wonder if the loads on those devices are causing (or further contributing to) noise and interference. Are the loads connected to your insteon devices something other than incadescent bulbs?

 

Of course, it is possible that you have faulty devices. I understand that certain versions can have problems (v3.5 switchlincs, if I recall). I do not recall hearing that "older" versions are necessarily a problem. Based on your latest post, I would check a couple of things:

 

a. what versions of switchlincs to you have and are any v3.5?

b. perform a scene test on your trouble scene and see if you have any indication of communication problems. Try it with the scene on and with it off.