Scene Activation from a KPL

[justin.cool]

This question is bound to have been answered before.....but I cannot find the answer anywhere.

 

I have an ISY-99, about 60 devices, about 6 KPLs.

 

I have a scene that is activated from any one of several different KPLs. The activation button is NOT the MAIN or Scene A button. However, the scene includes controlling the lights that are attached to the MAIN button. The issue is this:

 

If I activate the scene from say the Kitchen KPL, button H, all devices react as expected EXCEPT the device that is wired to the Kitchen KPL MAIN switch/button.

 

Likewise, If I activate the scene from the Dining Room KPL, button H, all devices react as expected EXCEPT the device that is wired to the Dining Room KPL MAIN switch/button. And indeed, when linking that scene from my ISY admin console, that MAIN/A button does not show up as controllable when I click on the Dining Room KPL H device.

 

This appears to be by design, as it is consistent across all KPLs. Am I missing something or do I have this right?

 

Is there a work around, short of writing a program, (which I have done in the meantime)?

[oberkc]

I have a scene, called landscape, where I use a six-button KPL button C to control a scene which also includes the primary button of that same KPL. On the other hand, I think I may have read somewhere where one cannot control a primary button of a given KPL via one of the other buttons. (Obviously, that is inconsistent with my experience.) Perhaps, too, this is peculiar to certain versions of a KPL.

 

While I cannot explain why you cannot do what I am able to do, perhaps there is a work-around until we can get to the root cause. You can consider setting up a program to activate the scene, based on the control of a keypad button. Try something like:

 

if:

 

control 'kitchen KPL H' is switched on

 

then

 

set scene 'main' on

 

else

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi justin.cool,

 

Are you trying to turn the load OFF using one of its own sub buttons? If so, unfortunately this will not work. You would have to use a very small on level instead (if it's not a relay).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[justin.cool]

Hi justin.cool,

 

Are you trying to turn the load OFF using one of its own sub buttons? If so, unfortunately this will not work. You would have to use a very small on level instead (if it's not a relay).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Michel,

 

I am trying to do both. I want to turn the Kitchen KPL MAIN LOAD ON to 80% when I activate the scene, then OFF completely when I turn the scene off.

 

However, when in the admin console, and I have clicked on the Kitchen KPL H icon, I cannot see the Kitchen KPL MAIN device.

[oberkc]

However, when in the admin console, and I have clicked on the Kitchen KPL H icon, I cannot see the Kitchen KPL MAIN device.

 

If, in the admin console, you choose the KPL H button on the left, you don't see, at the right of the screen, where it manages the KPL Main device?

 

If you select the scene in question, do you see both devices listed below? As I understand it, you should see KPL H button as a controller and KPL Main button as a responder. If you don't see both, add the missing one to the scene.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi justin.cool,

 

I'd have to agree with oberkc ... if the main button is not listed to the right then we either have a bug or that the main KPL button is not added to the scene.

 

Please advise.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[AnthemAVM]

I have several KPL that turn the master on and off from a scene.

 

Maybe you should factory reset it and try again.

 

Michael

[justin.cool]

Michel,

 

I apologize, I didn't explain this well. Let me try again. And if that doesn't work, I will have to create some screen shots.

 

In the admin console, I click on the scene in question on the left hand side of the screen:

 

Kitchen Evening Scene

Kit KPL A (Note this is a responder)

Dining Rm Lamp (Note this is a responder)

Dining KPL A (Note this is a responder)

Kit Bar Lights (Note this is a responder)

Kit KPL H (Note this is a controller)

Dining KPL H (Note this is a controller)

 

 

In the middle window, I see the name of the scene at the top, and the listing of the devices in that scene. At the bottom of the middle window, it lists the devices that are responders, where you can set the level and ramp rate of each device, if dimmable.

 

Now in this case, (where I have clicked on the scene name in the left hand window) visible at the bottom of the middle window, I see the 4 responders in that scene. The four responders are:

 

Kit KPL A

Dining Rm Lamp

Dining KPL A

Kit Bar Lights

 

And two of those listed are MAIN or A buttons on two of the 8 button KPLs.

 

Now, when I click on one of the controller buttons, for example Kit KPL H, that is indented/grouped under the scene name in the left hand window, the number of responders listed in the middle window, at the bottom, now drops to 3 from 4. For example, at the bottom of the middle window I now see:

 

Dining Rm Lamp

Dining KPL A

Kit Bar Lights

 

In other words, the MAIN device for Kit KPL is no longer visible in this middle window. Likewise, if I click on the Dining KPL H, in the left hand window, the listing at the bottom of the middle window looks like this:

 

Kit KPL A

Dining Rm Lamp

Kit Bar Lights

 

And I can adjust the ramp rate and level for each device that is dimmable. So in other words, it doesn’t allow me to set a ramp rate and level for the MAIN device of the KPL whose scene button I am trying to define.

 

The bottom line from this is that when I turn on/off the scene from the Kit KPL H button, the Kit KPL A (main) lights do NOT react. Likewise, when I turn on/off the scene from the Dining KPL H button, the Dining KPL A (main) lights do NOT react.

 

I hope that makes it more clear. It would appear to me that this is by design. But it doesn't appear to be consistent with what others are experiencing.

 

V/R Justin

 

 

 

Hi justin.cool,

 

I'd have to agree with oberkc ... if the main button is not listed to the right then we either have a bug or that the main KPL button is not added to the scene.

 

Please advise.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[oberkc]

Based on your latest description, I think I understand what you are seeing. That is not what I would expect, either. I would expect to be able to set the kit or dining KPL main ramp/dim levels based on buttons H from that same KPL. I would also expect your main buttons to react to scene commands, based on the way you have your scene defined.

 

Unfortunately, I will not have time to compare and confirm with my admin screen until later this afternoon. I would like to confirm that I don't have similar issues. I can tell you, however, that I have a couple of 6-key KPL where the main and secondary buttons are part of the same scene, and it works flawlessly. Unfortunately, I don't recall having any 8-key dimmer KPLs where a main and secondary button are part of the same scene. I may have to experiment.

 

Hopefully, someone can offer suggestions before then. I am also guessing that it may be important to know which version of ISY software you are using.

[justin.cool]

My ISY is running 2.7.6. I recently upgraded, in the last month. And nothing seemed to change with respect to this problem.

[Sub-Routine]

I think this is a limitation on the older KPLs. The level and rate can only be the local settings when controlled from a sub-button. I'm sorry I don't remember the revision number when that changed.

 

Does the main (load) light turn on and off when you use a button?

 

Rand

[MarkJames]

Sorry if this is 'going against the grain' but I can't say I agree with any of the posts that I've seen claiming that older KPL's cannot control their load from a sub button. I have KPL's going back to the very first version and I've always used button H to turn off the load on button A.

 

The only difference is that I cannot use a scene controller - not iSY - not Houselinc, not Powerhome - to make it happen. I must manually link it.

 

If you press/hold H till the load flashes and then press hold A till the load flashes the H will, indeed, control both the button A LED and the load attached to A. It will turn if off, on, or dim/bright as well as follow fast off and fast on. In my case H is always a non-toggle OFF. I have this set up on at least 12 KPL's in my home.

 

 

If I'm misunderstanding then my apologies.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi again,

 

Thanks so very much for the detailed description. Things are a little more clear now:

1. In firmware 2.7.7 and below, you could not create a controller/responder link between sub buttons of the same KPL in scenes. For that you had to use Button Groupings (or Mutually Exclusive buttons). As such, the first thing I recommend is upgrading to 2.7.12

2. In all cases, and for all KPLs:

- You cannot create a mutually exclusive relationship between a sub button and the load for the same KPL. i.e. you cannot have it such that when button C is on the load should turn off. You can, however, adjust the on level and ramp rate for the load given the sub button as a controller

- There are no on levels/ramp rates for sub buttons; they can either turn on or off

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[justin.cool]

Michel,

 

I finally had time to upgrade to 2.7.12 per your suggestion. And the problem has changed, but not as I would have expected.

 

Let me describe in more complete detail what I have:

 

• 3 KPLs, two are 8 button (dimmers) and one is a 6 button (relay).

o Kit KPL (8 button dimmer)

o Dining Rm KPL (8 button dimmer)

o Brkfst KPL (6 button relay)

 

• All three KPLs have load/main buttons that are part of the Kitchen Evening Scene (abbrev Kit Even Sc).

 

• Button H on all three KPLs are linked to turn on/off the Kit Even Sc.

 

• All linking in my entire network has been done through my ISY-99.

 

• When the scene is controlled from the ISY-99 admin console, it behaves as expected.

 

• When the scene is controlled from the 6 button KPL, everything behaves as expected.

 

• However, when I turn on /off the scene from either of the other two KPLs, (8 button dimmer types), I get the same, unexpected result. Specifically, when I turn the scene on via the Kit KPL, the main device on that KPL comes on 100%, with a ramp rate of 0 sec, despite being set for 55% and 2 sec ramp rate. (Note, as described in my long winded earlier post, I cannot set the level or ramp rate for this load, with the Kit KPL H button as the controller.) Also note that the Dining Rm KPL device comes on as expected (55% and ramp rate of 2 secs) when the scene is activated by the Kit KPL H button.

 

• Likewise, if I activate the scene from the Dining Rm KPL-H button, the Kit KPL main load comes on 55% and ramp rate 2 secs, but the Dining Rm KPL main load comes on 100%, with a ramp rate of 0 sec, despite being set for 55% and 2 sec ramp rate.

 

Firmware 2.7.12 has allowed me to reliably turn on/off the scene from a sub button and have the main load on that KPL, in that scene, be controlled as well, but the on level and ramp rates are 100% on and 0 secs.

 

Thus, some progress has been made, but still not what I would have expected. Is this the way it is supposed to work?

 

v/r Justin

_____________________________________

 

 

Hi again,

 

Thanks so very much for the detailed description. Things are a little more clear now:

1. In firmware 2.7.7 and below, you could not create a controller/responder link between sub buttons of the same KPL in scenes. For that you had to use Button Groupings (or Mutually Exclusive buttons). As such, the first thing I recommend is upgrading to 2.7.12

2. In all cases, and for all KPLs:

- You cannot create a mutually exclusive relationship between a sub button and the load for the same KPL. i.e. you cannot have it such that when button C is on the load should turn off. You can, however, adjust the on level and ramp rate for the load given the sub button as a controller

- There are no on levels/ramp rates for sub buttons; they can either turn on or off

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello again,

 

Thanks so very much for the detailed report.

 

So, would you say that most of the issues are with controlling the load on the Dining Room KPL?

 

If so, would you be kind enough to give me the firmware version as reported by ISY for this device? Also, have you tried to compare the links to this KPL vs. those in ISY?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Sub-Routine]

Hello Justin,

 

If you change the local level/rate can you say this is what the light comes on to when controlled by a button on the same device?

 

Rand

[justin.cool]

Michel,

 

Thanks for the prompt response. Here are the answers to your questions:

 

The ISY-99 reports the following for these KPL devices:

 

Kit Keypad

2486 DWH8 KPL Dimmer 8 button v.00

 

Brkfst Rm KPL

2486S/WH6 KPL Relay v.00

 

Dng Rm KPL

2486D KPL Dimmer v.00

 

The issue is identical with both Din Rm KPL and Kit KPL, in that the KPL H button turns on/off the scene but the local load on that KPL, only comes on at 100% and with a 0 second ramp rate, despite being set to 55% and a 2 second ramp rate. I have summarized the results below in the table, with the status of each case depending in which device was used to initiate the scene. Note that the Brkfst KPL H will not turn Brkfst KPL A load off when it is turned On, and this is consistent with your earlier postings. I can live with this minor quirk.

 

Initiator / Status ISY Brkfst Kit Dng Rm

KPL H KPL H KPL H

 

Brkfst Rm KPL A Off On Off Off

Brkfst Rm KPL H On On On On

Dining Rm Lamp 85 85 85 85

Dng Rm KPL A 55 55 55 On

Dng Rm KPL H On On On On

Kit Bar Lites On On On On

Kit KPL A 55 55 On 55

Kit KPL H On On On On

 

When I do a compare, of the Dining Room KPL link table to the ISY 99 device link table, here is what I get, 10 “Identical†and a bunch of “Extra Recordâ€. Could these extra records be an issue. I have NOT done a factory reset and restore, maybe that should be my next move???

 

[identical] 0FF8 : A2 36 0F.D5.9D FF 1F 06

[justin.cool]

Rand,

 

Good to hear from you again, we haven’t spoken for some time now, hope all is well. In response to your question. When I set the Level locally, via the ISY, for the Dining Rm KPL-A (load), to 35%, and I initiate the scene from Dining Rm KPL-H, here is what I get:

 

Device Status

Brkfst Rm KPL A Off

Brkfst Rm KPL H On

Dining Rm Lamp 85

Dng Rm KPL A On

Dng Rm KPL H On

Kit Bar Lites On

Kit KPL A 55

Kit KPL H On

 

 

If I just turn on the load of Dng KPL A manually by the button, the on level is 35%. When I initiate the scene from the Brkfst KPL H, here is what I get:

 

Device Status

Brkfst Rm KPL A On

Brkfst Rm KPL H On

Dining Rm Lamp 85

Dng Rm KPL A 55

Dng Rm KPL H On

Kit Bar Lites On

Kit KPL A 55

Kit KPL H On

 

Basically the same results as I posted for Michel above/below.

 

And this is of course the desired result for the Kit and Dng KPL loads.

 

Thanks!

 

Justin Monger

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Justin,

 

I think the problem is that ISY does not know the version number (.00) of your KPLs and thus does not let you have a sub button control the load.

 

Unfortunately, at this point, I must recommend the following:

1. Remove your KPL from ISY

2. Add it back using either of the following methods:

-- Link Management | Start Linking ... then push and hold the set button on your KPL OR

-- Link Management | Add New INSTEON Device and ensure that you are using Auto Discover (do not pick a device from the list)

 

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[justin.cool]

Michel,

 

Excellent results now! The s/w version came back as v.2D with autodetect. Thank you very much.

 

That KPL is now solid as a rock, doing exactly what I expected. Now I have 6 more to go!!

 

However, i must say it took a while to:

- Remove all 8 buttons of the KPL from all the scenes

- Factory reset the KPL

- Auto detect

- Add them all back to the scenes,

- Get the ramp rates and On Levels from the "Copy Scene Attributes........"

 

With the larger, more complex scenes, there was a lot of idle time.

 

Is there a quicker way to accomplish this process????

 

Really appreciate your support, it has kept me a believer in this system. Thanks again!

 

Justin

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Justin,

 

I am so very glad to hear it!

 

You can remove the the KPL from ISY and it removes all the buttons from the associated scenes/folders automatically. This said, however, it would still take a long time to process all the communications.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[justin.cool]

Michel,

 

Given your suggestion of just removing the KPL from the ISY, doesnt that potentially leave a lot of loose links out there in the system? Somewhere I thought I had heard that. If it is a clean operation, I will certainly do if for the remaining 6 KPLs that dont have the s/w version recognized by the ISY.

 

Thanks again!

[Sub-Routine]

Hi Justin, things are well here, thank you.

 

Removing a device from the ISY should remove all the links.

 

To save some of the re-scening you could try using Replace. Remove #1 KPL and add it back. Replace #2 with #1 which will Remove #2. Add #2 back and Replace #1 with #2 so the links are back in #2. Replace #3 with #1, etc. Then you will have to re-link #1 at the end. Of course they will have to have the same number of buttons to do this.

 

Rand

 

Michel,

 

Given your suggestion of just removing the KPL from the ISY, doesnt that potentially leave a lot of loose links out there in the system? Somewhere I thought I had heard that. If it is a clean operation, I will certainly do if for the remaining 6 KPLs that dont have the s/w version recognized by the ISY.

 

Thanks again!

[belias]

Just reading a bunch of posts this morning and I thought I'd throw in my two cents on the KPL local load / sub-button topic:

 

I have a new (v.36) 8-button KPL that is able to turn off the local load completely from a sub-button (no programs, only a scene built from the ISY). I didn't think it was possible (given the previous posts and the warning in the ISY software), but sure enough it works great. Apologies if this has been described previously, but I didn't see it. Here's my setup...

 

Button A: Local load, controls overhead lights

Buttons B, C, D: Nothing special, each linked to a different SWL

Buttons E, F, G: Controls various scenes that involve turning Button A (and the local load) on and off; the scenes ensure that only one of these three is on at a time

Button H: Not used

 

Buttons E,F,G set up as Toggle On. No local grouping on the KPL is used; no local programming on the KPL is required.

 

In the ISY, I created 3 scenes (one each for button E,F,G). In each scene, all 8 buttons are present with one (E,F,G) being the controller. On the main screen for each controller, I set "KPL Button A" to 0 with a ramp rate of 0.1s (or set to the desired brightness). Then set the remaining KPL buttons to the desired state.

 

Now hit button E,F,G and it works exactly as intended. The local load switches completely off (lights off, KPL indicator off) and it does it immediately without the delay associated with a program. Hit a different button and (depending on the scene settings for that controller), Button A and the local load turn on perfectly.

 

I haven't tried this on my older KPL's (no need), and I would assume that it's not possible. Regardless, I was pleasantly surprised when I tried it on this one...

 

 

 

-Brian

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Brian,

 

 

....

 

I haven't tried this on my older KPL's (no need), and I would assume that it's not possible. Regardless, I was pleasantly surprised when I tried it on this one...

 

 

To be honest, so am I pleasantly surprised as well! This has never been possible before on any KPL versions (the latest one I tested was v36) before. Actually, we had to request our users to use a low on level to mimic off! So, since you are using KPL v36, I must ask: are you certain that you can turn off the load using its sub buttons?

 

With kind regards,

Michel