i3 Insteon dimmers working in IoX 5.5.4

[Bumbershoot]

EDIT3: All the testing performed in the post was performed from the Admin Console, not from the device itself.

Given that I'm less than thrilled with my Zen77 dimmers that I installed during the Insteon pause, I took a chance and ordered a new Insteon i3 dimmer to take a look at to see if I like them.

One arrived in the mail this afternoon, so I hooked it up to my test jig and took it for a spin.  Observations:

1. It linked/installed quickly (using UD Mobile as the interface) when I used the "set" button on the device.
2. On/Off works as expected.
3. Fast On/Fast Off works as expected.
4. Dimming works as expected.
5. Ramp Rate works as expected.
6. On Level works as expected.
7. Fade Up/Fade Down works as expected.

The only thing that doesn't work as I expected is that the "Status" doesn't change on a Fade Up/Fade Down unless I query it.  The "Status" value seems to update on every other operation that I've tested so far.  It shows up in the AC as an "Unsupported Device".

I haven't configured the dimmer as an On/Off switch yet (I didn't know that was possible, but apparently it is).

I'll install this is a working environment later this weekend, and do some further testing.  So far, however, it's perfectly functional as I would intend to use it.

Ergonomically, it's a nice device, and the WAF seems high.  If they bring light almond to the market, I'll likely buy quite a few more.

Polisy Pro running 5.5.4 with ZMatter installed.

EDIT: Added screenshot

Edited January 30, 2023 by Bumbershoot

[kclenden]

8 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

The only thing that doesn't work as I expected is that the "Status" doesn't change on a Fade Up/Fade Down unless I query it.

Would you capture a log of communication, using the Event Viewer on Level 3, when you do an ON followed by a Fade Down, followed by a Fade Up, and finally an OFF, and then post it here?

[Bumbershoot]

12 hours ago, kclenden said:

Would you capture a log of communication, using the Event Viewer on Level 3, when you do an ON followed by a Fade Down, followed by a Fade Up, and finally an OFF, and then post it here?

Here you go:

-- On --
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:27 : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 60 11 12 0F 11 FF
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:27 : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 60.11.12 0F 11 FF 06          LTONRR (FF)
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:27 : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 60.11.12 4A.A3.BA 2F 11 FF    LTONRR (FF)
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:27 : [Std-Direct Ack] 60.11.12-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:27 : [D2D EVENT       ] Event [60 11 12 1] [ST] [255] uom=100 prec=0
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:27 : [60 11 12 1      ]       ST 255 (uom=100 prec=0)
-- Fade Down --
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:32 : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 60 11 12 0F 17 00
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:32 : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 60.11.12 0F 17 00 06          LTMCON (DOWN)
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:32 : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 60.11.12 4A.A3.BA 2F 17 00    LTMCON (DOWN)
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:32 : [Std-Direct Ack] 60.11.12-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
-- Fade Up --
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:37 : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 60 11 12 0F 17 01
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:37 : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 60.11.12 0F 17 01 06          LTMCON (UP)
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:37 : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 60.11.12 4A.A3.BA 2B 17 01    LTMCON (UP)
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:37 : [Std-Direct Ack] 60.11.12-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
-- Off --
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:41 : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 60 11 12 0F 13 00
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:41 : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 60.11.12 0F 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:41 : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 60.11.12 4A.A3.BA 2F 13 00    LTOFFRR(00)
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:41 : [Std-Direct Ack] 60.11.12-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:41 : [D2D EVENT       ] Event [60 11 12 1] [ST] [0] uom=100 prec=0
Sun 01/29/2023 03:44:41 : [60 11 12 1      ]       ST   0 (uom=100 prec=0)

EDIT:  I'm done testing for a while.  My Polisy decided to quit playing along and won't reboot.  Must be time for an eisy...

EDIT2:  Power supply on the Polisy failed.  I found another I can use, so I'll get back to installing/testing later this week.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Bumbershoot

[Brian H]

Than you for the log data. I am sure it will be of a big help.

[Bumbershoot]

2 hours ago, Brian H said:

Than you for the log data. I am sure it will be of a big help.

My Polisy is back in business, so I'm able to run tests again if you can think of anything relevant.

[kclenden]

20 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

Here you go:

Those are all commands that were initiated from the Admin Console.  So I misunderstood your initial testing.  I thought you were indicating that the Admin Console did not change the "Status" when you faded UP or DOWN from the device.

The actions shown in your log do actually result in expected behavior.  From the Admin Console, there are "Fade Up" and "Fade Down" buttons that start the action.  The action continues until you click the "Fade Stop" button at which point the device stops the action and reports its illumination level.  Your log only shows a fade DOWN followed by a fade UP, with no fade STOP in between.  If I had known you were doing the fade from the Admin Console, I'd have asked you to put a fade STOP in between.

Edit: Actually, after looking at the Insteon Command documentation for Fade STOP, it doesn't look like the device reports its illumination level after receiving the command.  So I'm left assuming that the ISY/eISY is only estimating the illumination level based on the amount of time between the fade DOWN or UP command and the fade STOP command.  Some testing seems to confirm this as the level reported by the Admin Console after a fade STOP is usually close, but not always the same as the level that is reported when a QUERY is done after a STOP.

Edited January 30, 2023 by kclenden

[Bumbershoot]

8 hours ago, kclenden said:

Those are all commands that were initiated from the Admin Console.  So I misunderstood your initial testing.  I thought you were indicating that the Admin Console did not change the "Status" when you faded UP or DOWN from the device.

The actions shown in your log do actually result in expected behavior.  From the Admin Console, there are "Fade Up" and "Fade Down" buttons that start the action.  The action continues until you click the "Fade Stop" button at which point the device stops the action and reports its illumination level.  Your log only shows a fade DOWN followed by a fade UP, with no fade STOP in between.  If I had known you were doing the fade from the Admin Console, I'd have asked you to put a fade STOP in between.

Edit: Actually, after looking at the Insteon Command documentation for Fade STOP, it doesn't look like the device reports its illumination level after receiving the command.  So I'm left assuming that the ISY/eISY is only estimating the illumination level based on the amount of time between the fade DOWN or UP command and the fade STOP command.  Some testing seems to confirm this as the level reported by the Admin Console after a fade STOP is usually close, but not always the same as the level that is reported when a QUERY is done after a STOP.

Actually, actions performed on the device (not from the Admin Console) do not update the "Status" in the Admin Console.  Rotating the dimmer knob to change the "On Level" does not change the "Status" and no data shows up in the Event Viewer.  Likewise for pressing the "On/Off" button on the switch -- no change in the "Status" and no data in the Event Viewer.

When writing programs however, this dimmer appears to be identical to other Insteon dimmers.

It seems to me that it's odd that there is nothing showing up in the Event Viewer when actions are initiated at the device.  Wouldn't you think that there'd be some sort of detectable Insteon traffic?  I wonder how Insteon deals with this in their app?

[Goose66]

Do you have access to product installation manuals? What does multi-switch linking look like with these devices? I am curious if and how well this works, because it may be indicative of how the new i3 devices are using the Insteon protocol(s).

The way original Insteon devices worked is that they were in a scene with a Hub or PLM as a controller (the first scene in the scene list). So when you changed state locally it would broadcast equivalent messages to all the scenes that it was a controller in, which included the Hub or PLM. However, while you could still technically command and configure an older Insteon device through the PLM even if it was not linked to the PLM, it would not update the PLM with local state changes. 

This goes back to the need of a local API for the Hub that ISY (or a node server) could interface with to support all devices equally despite changes in the protocol (or new devices using the protocol in a different way). But perhaps I am just panicking. 🤨

[lilyoyo1]

23 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Do you have access to product installation manuals? What does multi-switch linking look like with these devices? I am curious if and how well this works, because it may be indicative of how the new i3 devices are using the Insteon protocol(s).

The way original Insteon devices worked is that they were in a scene with a Hub or PLM as a controller (the first scene in the scene list). So when you changed state locally it would broadcast equivalent messages to all the scenes that it was a controller in, which included the Hub or PLM. However, while you could still technically command and configure an older Insteon device through the PLM even if it was not linked to the PLM, it would not update the PLM with local state changes. 

This goes back to the need of a local API for the Hub that ISY (or a node server) could interface with to support all devices equally despite changes in the protocol (or new devices using the protocol in a different way). But perhaps I am just panicking. 🤨

Everything still works the same as with older insteon devices which is why it can be added to the system. Because the Isy doesn't recognize the devices itself, there are limits to how the Isy can handle them. For all intents and purposes though, nothing changes about how they work. 

 

[Goose66]

But if you can drop the i3 device into a scene as a controller with other, older Insteon devices and it all works as expected, then traditional ISY/PLM setup's ability to reflect the device's state in the Admin Console should also work when local state of the device changes, because it is Insteon scene functionality that's behind it. What am I missing in that statement?

[Brian H]

The screen shot shows it is an Unsupported Device.

Probably had to be added with Start Linking mode as auto probably will not find it.

Not clear right now. How much the new device was programed after originally being a Nokia Module. I would imagine at least. It may have the same Category and new Subcategory when interrogate for an ID.

[lilyoyo1]

19 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

But if you can drop the i3 device into a scene as a controller with other, older Insteon devices and it all works as expected, then traditional ISY/PLM setup's ability to reflect the device's state in the Admin Console should also work when local state of the device changes, because it is Insteon scene functionality that's behind it. What am I missing in that statement?

I tested mine when I was still using the Isy and couldn't get it added to a scene. I'll re-add them tonight and see what happens. With the keypad, It only added the main switch as a relay so I didn't even bother trying with that.   

[Bumbershoot]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I tested mine when I was still using the Isy and couldn't get it added to a scene. I'll re-add them tonight and see what happens. With the keypad, It only added the main switch as a relay so I didn't even bother trying with that.   

I added to a scene just fine (with another switch link dimmer), and it responds just as you would hope, with the exception of not updating "Status" when manipulated at the device.  When manipulated by the Admin Console, everything works entirely as expected.

[Goose66]

I would have thought this would be handled like the Motion Sensor IIs. Even though UDI never received the full specs and the ins and outs on how to configure over extended Insteon protocol, and thus their "full support" was late in coming (if it ever did), their functionality as basic Insteon devices worked immediately.

Concepts like sending/receiving On (DON), Off (DOF), Fast On (DFON), Fast Off (DFOF), Brighten one step (over 32) (BRT), Dim one step (DIM) commands and reflecting "state" (ST) are tightly entrenched in the Insteon protocol and should work by default out of the box for any Insteon device, "supported" or not.

[Goose66]

2 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

I added to a scene just fine (with another switch link dimmer), and it responds just as you would hope, with the exception of not updating "Status" when manipulated at the device. 

Well there's the salient fact, right? I mean "responds just as you would hope" and  "not updating "Status" when manipulated at the device" are oxymoronic, IMO. It clearly shows that "nothing changes about how they work" is not a true statement. For example, your SwitchLinc may control the load on your i3 Dimmer when in a scene, but if the i3 Dimmer can't control the load on SwitchLinc in that scene then everything is not working as expected or hoped. This seems like a significant departure from conventional Insteon functionality.

[Bumbershoot]

3 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Well there's the salient fact, right? I mean "responds just as you would hope" and  "not updating "Status" when manipulated at the device" are oxymoronic, IMO. It clearly shows that "nothing changes about how they work" is not a true statement. For example, your SwitchLinc may control the load on your i3 Dimmer when in a scene, but if the i3 Dimmer can't control the load on SwitchLinc in that scene then everything is not working as expected or hoped. This seems like a significant departure from conventional Insteon functionality.

Yes, agreed.  

Here's a link to the Quick Start Guide: http://www.insteon.com/support-knowledgebase/get-started-ds01

There's supposed to be a page here one day, according to the flyer in the box: http://www.insteon.com/dial

EDIT: No owners manual is available yet.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Bumbershoot

[Bumbershoot]

5 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

For example, your SwitchLinc may control the load on your i3 Dimmer when in a scene, but if the i3 Dimmer can't control the load on SwitchLinc in that scene then everything is not working as expected or hoped. This seems like a significant departure from conventional Insteon functionality.

The i3 dimmer does indeed control the load on the other SwitchLinc in the scene.  The only difference I have found so far is that the "Status" isn't updated in the AC.

[Brian H]

It is definitely different.

Near the bottom of the Quick Start Guide. On the given link.

It has the Nokia option to be set to either a dimmer or a On Off device with some set button sequences.

It was posted that the Nokia modules where not 100% feature wise from a standard Insteon Module.

Good to see it was even seen at all in the ISY controller.

[Bumbershoot]

5 minutes ago, Brian H said:

It has the Nokia option to be set to either a dimmer or a On Off device with some set button sequences.

Later today I'll see if I can set it up as an On/Off switch.

[Bumbershoot]

39 minutes ago, Brian H said:

Probably had to be added with Start Linking mode as auto probably will not find it.

I actually added it using UD Mobile.  I just used the "Set" button to add it.

[Goose66]

Now admittedly it's  been a LONG TIME since I have looked at the Insteon protocol. I had a pretty thorough understanding of it when making my forays into the ISY 99i back in 2008. There was a "Status Update" command as well, but it wasn't really used for anything, IIRC. Maybe later versions of Insteon devices use this, but it requires specific acknowledgment by device profile in the ISY. I would think you would still see the "Status Update" command in the PLM logs, however.

I guess I need to buy one of these. 

[Bumbershoot]

9 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

I would think you would still see the "Status Update" command in the PLM logs, however.

There's nothing in the Event Viewer.  I'll sniff around in the logs later today.

EDIT: Gotta run for a bit, but here's a snippet from the system log (these are the two devices in the scene):

Devices / dirGuestBedroom / sldGuestVanityLight	Status	Off	Mon 2023/01/30 07:06:47 	System	Unknown	
60.11.12.1	Status	Off	Mon 2023/01/30 07:06:47 	System	Unknown	

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Bumbershoot

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Goose66 said:

Well there's the salient fact, right? I mean "responds just as you would hope" and  "not updating "Status" when manipulated at the device" are oxymoronic, IMO. It clearly shows that "nothing changes about how they work" is not a true statement. For example, your SwitchLinc may control the load on your i3 Dimmer when in a scene, but if the i3 Dimmer can't control the load on SwitchLinc in that scene then everything is not working as expected or hoped. This seems like a significant departure from conventional Insteon functionality.

Nothing changes how they work is in regards to how insteon works in itself (with other insteon devices). This is why it was able to be placed in a scene and controlled by another insteon device without issue. The hangup is on the controller side of things not insteon devices itself. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by lilyoyo1

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Bumbershoot said:

Later today I'll see if I can set it up as an On/Off switch.

Unfortunately it can't unless they've updated something. At least during the test phase, it had to be done via the Nokia Smart lighting software. The paddle and kpl both show up as if they were relays. You can change that behavior in the Smart lighting app though.

Edited January 30, 2023 by lilyoyo1

[MrBill]

27 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Unfortunately it can't unless they've updated something. At least during the test phase, it had to be done via the Nokia Smart lighting software. The paddle and kpl both show up as if they were relays. You can change that behavior in the Smart lighting app though.

I think they changed the firmware between nokia test and now.  the insteon branded devices only have basic instructions only so far tho.

Quote

Manually change between dimmer and on/off modes

Out of the box, your Dial is set to dimmer mode. If it’s wired to a non-dimmable bulb or fixture, follow the instructions here:

1. Pull out the set button to engage - the air gap (status LED will turn off)

2. Press and hold the dial

3. While pressing the dial, push the set button back in place

4. Continue pressing the dial until the status LED turns blue and the device beeps twice (on/off mode) or beeps once (dimmer mode)