Insteon outlet not always changing state

[leecast]

Hi Folks! I have a long-standing issue on which I am hoping to gain some expert insights. 

I have an Insteon network with over 100 devices and had an issue occur periodically on an isy 994i that also happens on my new eisy. I am using a 2663-222 v4.4 outlet with a hot water circulation pump. I have the pump turn on by way of a when motion is detected in showers, the kitchen, etc. When scenes turn on in those areas, programs set state variables to be "1" for them. Another program looks for a value of "1" in any of those areas using OR conditions and turn on the pump while any are set to "1." Another program uses an AND condition to look for all of the areas to be set to "0," and once they all are, the pump turns off. 

I think all of that is working as it should. The issue is that eisy shows the switch as being on, and sometimes it is not actually on. The problem? Cold water while in the shower! Brrrrr!  

I have boosted the retries to "5" and even created an Amazon Echo command where I can turn it on by voice. My question is, has anyone experience Insteon outlets showing as being on in Administrative Console when they are not actually on at the outlet itself?

Any suggestions of other things to try or data I might provide?

Thanks very much in advance! This has been a long-standing gremlin. 

Best,
Lee

 

[Geddy]

@leecast on the programs that you're running right click and select "copy to clipboard" and post them in a reply here. Maybe some of the programming gurus can help sort things out.

Also, what model motion sensor are you using? I think the 1st version had some issues with the ISY994 and figure it might still have issues with eisy. I've never used Insteon motion sensors so don't know much about the issues they were causing, but sounds like it might be what you're experiencing. 

 

[MrBill]

You say this is a long standing issue, did it ever work correctly?

If you're seeing the ON value in the admin console, but the outlet has not turned on, that sounds more like a communication issue.  There are many possibilities from bad device to noise makers and signal suckers.  I just checked and 2663-222 does appear to be a dual band device, so that's good.   

Being intermittent makes it even harder to track down.  If it consistently fails, you could open the Event Viewer and set level 3 in the dropdown, then try to capture failed communication traffic.  Post the failed output in this thread and someone that amazing at reading the Event Viewer will likely come along and interpret it.  Keep in mind, posting event viewer traffic where the outlet did turn on won't tell anyone anything, only when the admin console changed to ON but the outlet didn't turn on.

How far away is the nearest dual band device?  Perhaps try adding something closer. 

If it fails frequently enough that you can test, I'd turn off and unplug things on the same circuit as the pump and see if it works more consistently.  If its a noise maker cause the problem, sometimes its possible to track those down turning off whole circuits.

[leecast]

44 minutes ago, MrBill said:

You say this is a long standing issue, did it ever work correctly?

If you're seeing the ON value in the admin console, but the outlet has not turned on, that sounds more like a communication issue.  There are many possibilities from bad device to noise makers and signal suckers.  I just checked and 2663-222 does appear to be a dual band device, so that's good.   

Being intermittent makes it even harder to track down.  If it consistently fails, you could open the Event Viewer and set level 3 in the dropdown, then try to capture failed communication traffic.  Post the failed output in this thread and someone that amazing at reading the Event Viewer will likely come along and interpret it.  Keep in mind, posting event viewer traffic where the outlet did turn on won't tell anyone anything, only when the admin console changed to ON but the outlet didn't turn on.

How far away is the nearest dual band device?  Perhaps try adding something closer. 

If it fails frequently enough that you can test, I'd turn off and unplug things on the same circuit as the pump and see if it works more consistently.  If its a noise maker cause the problem, sometimes its possible to track those down turning off whole circuits.

Hi MrBill, and thanks so much for your time to respond and provide this info!

To clarify, it works correctly about 90% of the time or better. The outlet is located about 2' away from the main breaker box for the house. The water pump is on the top outlet and gas water heater with blower is on the bottom one. HVAC is about 6' away from the outlet.

In terms of other Insteon network devices in proximity, there are four switches, a couple of outdoor model outlets (that are indoors), another indoor outlet, and four older-model motion detectors that are all within about 20' of the outlet in question. That outlet might be the only think on that breaker, but I will have to check to be sure. 

I will endeavor to enable Event Viewer as you suggested. 

Any and all further thoughts are most welcome.

[MrBill]

7 minutes ago, leecast said:

The water pump is on the top outlet and gas water heater with blower is on the bottom one.

The first thing I would question is if the problem occurs when the gas water heater that's plugged in is running.   Normally I'd guess that it's not... that 90% of the time it works... it's running for some other reason and a signal is sent to the plug to turn the other outlet on and it never arrives due to noise.   If that's the case a noise filter may be needed for the gas hot water heater/blower.

[leecast]

37 minutes ago, MrBill said:

The first thing I would question is if the problem occurs when the gas water heater that's plugged in is running.   Normally I'd guess that it's not... that 90% of the time it works... it's running for some other reason and a signal is sent to the plug to turn the other outlet on and it never arrives due to noise.   If that's the case a noise filter may be needed for the gas hot water heater/blower.

Great thinking, thanks! I did just check and it looks like that outlet is on its own breaker. So only the water heater and water pump are on it. Without knowing the way the communications work, it surprises me that eisy would show the outlet for the water pump being on when it is not. I would be expecting it to have to receive some kind of acknowledgment message back from the outlet before it would say it was on, but I am novice in that aspect to Insteon. 

When I looked again, the outlet box is less than 1' away from the breaker box. Also, I can potentially move the water heater to another outlet. It is also nearby, but that would put it on another circuit. Think it is worth a shot?

If I do want to try a noise filter, I am assuming I would be plugging it in between the water heater and to whatever outlet it is connected? Do you have a suggestion for a filter?

Thanks again! I am excited to have new things to try. 
Lee

[MrBill]

Yes I would definitely try anything to see if you can change the behavior.  Either unplugged, plugged in somewhere else, or even just experimentation.  make the hot water heater run and see if it fails consistently when it is.

Filterlinc is Insteon's plug-in filter.  I think it was supposed to return to the shelves in January (from a November slide I have saved from an Insteon event), checking the stock on insteon.com now tho, I'm not spotting the item.    A number of people have suggested other filter options over the years but I'll let them chime in when they see this post.

[leecast]

10 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Yes I would definitely try anything to see if you can change the behavior.  Either unplugged, plugged in somewhere else, or even just experimentation.  make the hot water heater run and see if it fails consistently when it is.

Filterlinc is Insteon's plug-in filter.  I think it was supposed to return to the shelves in January (from a November slide I have saved from an Insteon event), checking the stock on insteon.com now tho, I'm not spotting the item.  A number of people have suggested other filter options over the years but I'll let them chime in when they see this post.

Awesome, thanks again!

Lee

[leecast]

OK, an update on all of this. I moved the water heater that has the powered blower on it to another outlet that is on another circuit. The issue persisted. I was in the basement this morning looking to see if the outlet was off as there was no hot water and eisy was showing the pump was on. It was actually not. I manually turned it on, and when the water heater happened to kick on while I was standing there, the outlet turned back off! It was still reporting being on with eisy. 

So, should I understand that there may be power line interference caused by the water heater kicking on that somehow makes the Insteon outlet believe it should turn off and not report back to eisy that it is off?

I did order a 10-amp FilterLinc today on eBay. I will try plugging the water heater into the filtered outlet when it gets here. 

Also, I have another gremlin that turns the lights on in my balcony area periodically. There are about 8 switches associated with that scene. They do all come on when those lights turn on by themselves. Do you think it is possible power line noise could be causing that too?

Thanks!

Lee

[MrBill]

Don't get blinders on that the only source of noise might be the hot water heater and blower-- that was just a good place to start since motors are always likely candidates.  I haven't had to do this for ages, but years ago I had to identify the network/router/ISY/PLM breaker, then turn off half the breakers at a time, then test, then the other half and test... then half of those... etc until i had the source of noise narrowed down to one circuit.  Turned out it was a kitchen countertop appliance, just keeping it unplugged most of the time was the initial solution, it's since been replaced.

11 minutes ago, leecast said:

when the water heater happened to kick on while I was standing there, the outlet turned back off!

This can be caused by a lot of things.  Programming that's in error, inclusion in scene, or bad links stored in the device.

12 minutes ago, leecast said:

Also, I have another gremlin that turns the lights on in my balcony area periodically. There are about 8 switches associated with that scene. They do all come on when those lights turn on by themselves. Do you think it is possible power line noise could be causing that too?

That's likely device links that have become messed up. 

I would start by selecting each device in the device tree one at a time, right click and pick "restore device".. Be patient this will take awhile to get thru.     This re-writes the devices links to what the ISY expects to be there.

I don't expect that problem 1 (hot water) and problem 2 (balcony lights) are the same issue.  My guess from what you've said here is that problem 1 is a noise/signal issue and problem 2 is a bad link issue... but 2 may have originally been caused by noise or poor communication.

[leecast]

13 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Don't get blinders on that the only source of noise might be the hot water heater and blower-- that was just a good place to start since motors are always likely candidates.  I haven't had to do this for ages, but years ago I had to identify the network/router/ISY/PLM breaker, then turn off half the breakers at a time, then test, then the other half and test... then half of those... etc until i had the source of noise narrowed down to one circuit.  Turned out it was a kitchen countertop appliance, just keeping it unplugged most of the time was the initial solution, it's since been replaced.

This can be caused by a lot of things.  Programming that's in error, inclusion in scene, or bad links stored in the device.

That's likely device links that have become messed up. 

I would start by selecting each device in the device tree one at a time, right click and pick "restore device".. Be patient this will take awhile to get thru.     This re-writes the devices links to what the ISY expects to be there.

I don't expect that problem 1 (hot water) and problem 2 (balcony lights) are the same issue.  My guess from what you've said here is that problem 1 is a noise/signal issue and problem 2 is a bad link issue... but 2 may have originally been caused by noise or poor communication.

Thanks so much again, MrBill! Very kind of you to spend the time and share your expertise. Much appreciated! I will try what you suggested today. Also, I feel the need to share this picture of our dog and her favorite toy. It actually says "Ohhh Nooo!" when squeezed!