Programming automations IoX vs. HA

[shbatm]

If you're keen on an alternative, check out insteon-mqtt, still not as easy as the AC, but probably closer than the built in HA Insteon from the little testing I've done.

[firstone]

On 4/5/2023 at 8:41 PM, brians said:

I keep hearing different opinions which is the best. How IoX is so superior and easier compared to HA. From what I am seeing, I do not really believe this so far and probably is just people talking that are used to IoX. Maybe I am ....

 

 

I'll give my 2 cents nobody asked for - I think HA is way more flexible. You can do more things and do them simpler. Without too much repetition. Especially if you're comfortable with yaml. On a flip side, I've had to have doc pages open and check for various objects properties to start with. IoX on the other hand is a lot more beginner friendly IMHO. The interface, while not quite advanced and not as flexible, is more intuitive to use. 

I think you're missing out on not using "fancy" cards. That's probably the strongest part of HA. 

Also, if you primarily using it for home kit, possibly look into home bridge. I have no experience with it beyond installing but it's made specifically for home kit.

[brians]

12 hours ago, firstone said:

 

I'll give my 2 cents nobody asked for - I think HA is way more flexible. You can do more things and do them simpler. Without too much repetition. Especially if you're comfortable with yaml. On a flip side, I've had to have doc pages open and check for various objects properties to start with. IoX on the other hand is a lot more beginner friendly IMHO. The interface, while not quite advanced and not as flexible, is more intuitive to use. 

I think you're missing out on not using "fancy" cards. That's probably the strongest part of HA. 

Also, if you primarily using it for home kit, possibly look into home bridge. I have no experience with it beyond installing but it's made specifically for home kit.

I am not going to use HA for its interface/dashboard abilities right away, I am instead working on seeing how I can move more functionality over to it, and afterwards will look at designing dashboards. I do experiment a bit with the dashboards as I go though, and have watched several tutorials... I think mushroom is probably the one I will try first.

My plan is not to primarily use it for HomeKit, but to move everything over to HA and HomeKit is just a bonus. Prior to this, I was running HomeBridge for probably 4-5 years. The omebridge-isy-njs Homebridge plugin (or its forks) is not supported anymore and does not work with certain device types eg. binary switches. The HomeKit Integration in HA with ISY integration works much better than HomeBridge with isy did. I still use homebridge to display unifi cameras for now, for some reason they don't come across in the HA HomeKit but will look at this in future.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by brians

[brians]

On 4/18/2023 at 7:18 AM, vbPhil said:

Very, very true. I was getting bored with the AC over the years, it never gets UI improvements just a functional, boring JAVA program. But now that I've experienced HA with an Insteon PLM connected, the AC is my number one choice. Especially since just witnessing HA creating Insteon Scenes. HA does not write the scene links to devices, and you can only turn a scene on or off. There's no capability to adjust individual ramp and brightness levels on the devices when creating the scene. My Insteon migration to HA has been suspended until further Insteon capabilities have been added to HA, if ever. 

That's  too bad. In my Insteon setup, I only use scenes to link virtual 3-way switches and keypadlincs, so could probably work around that. I plan on replacing many keypadlincs with other things in future anyways... seems far more options with HA.  But for now, my plan is that when I am done, my Polisy will simply be an Insteon Bridge to Home Assistant, controlling all the scene links, LED synchronizations etc.

[vbPhil]

3 minutes ago, brians said:

But for now, my plan is that when I am done, my Polisy will simply be an Insteon Bridge to Home Assistant, controlling all the scene links, LED synchronizations etc.

I will be doing the same for a while anyway. If HA is going to be the main controller it'd be better if the ISY could just be a bridge and not contain any of the scripting or scene control, but it is what it is.

[brians]

1 hour ago, vbPhil said:

I will be doing the same for a while anyway. If HA is going to be the main controller it'd be better if the ISY could just be a bridge and not contain any of the scripting or scene control, but it is what it is.

You can still call scenes from HA and use them in your automations. IoX can just be used to create the scenes but no need to use its programs to trigger them.  The exceptions would be if you have scene linked to a keypadlinc button, I would leave that to IoX to handle so it sets up the links properly with Insteon between the devices, and LED sync which already has been mentioned.

Having ISY integration is no real different than many other HA integrations/addons. For example ZHA, or maybe better example is Zigbee2MQTT (which I just moved over to from ZHA) act in this way... all the setup of devices is actually done using Zigbee2MQTT (Z2M) and then they are sent over to Home Assistant as entities via Mosquitto broker. Many people actually run Z2M it on a different device to keep separate from Home Assistant. If want to setup Zigbee groups, it is done via Z2M which is similar (but probably not as powerful) as Insteon Scenes.

UDI Nodeservers and ISY are also same idea... the PG3 nodeserver server just happens to be running on the same Polisy/Eisy, but back in the day we used to run Nodeservers on a raspberry pi, and the Polisy was actually introduced to only run PG and did not even run IoX until just over a year ago. So having things on different servers is just a way of doing home automation nowadays.

As long as integration keeps working, @shbatmdoesn't retire, or switches from Insteon , and UDI doesn't inadvertently change something which break the integration (seems unlikely), then I don't have an issue with running this way.

 

 

[brians]

Did some more testing. Added Zen32, was simple to setup. I did not use the blueprint because I found just manually creating automation was easy enough and I wanted other lights to update the LEDs and didn't appear that the blueprint I looked at did that.

My GE/Jasco Motion light for bathroom I had previous problems with RF interference (it still has interference) I included Zen71 for bathroom fan which is the device causing motion interference. I was able to write an automation which disables the motion sensor on light while it turns fan off and seems to be working fairly good now. I also have an hourly automation which turns fan on for 5 min and disables the motion sensor same way prior... my attempt at IoX programs still had issues where it would not work correct and light would still come on sometimes so will see how this one works. I am going to fix that interference  issue properly anyways by trying a zigbee switch to replace fan, and if I still get interference from it, I will instead use a Aquara P1 battery powered motion and place in bathroom.

Zigbee is working very good for me so far, it is a whole new world of devices that can use. For example, I just picked up a philips hue RGB bulb and was able to add no issues not requiring the hub. There are less expensive options available for RGB zigbee lights I can look into.

One feature I have discoverd in HA automation so far that is lacking vs IoX is the ability to check if another automation is running or not. This can be worked around using a helper variable/entity and setting that on when a program starts, and off when finished which other automation can use to check.

[asbril]

14 minutes ago, brians said:

Did some more testing. Added Zen32, was simple to setup. I did not use the blueprint because I found just manually creating automation was easy enough and I wanted other lights to update the LEDs and didn't appear that the blueprint I looked at did that.

My GE/Jasco Motion light for bathroom I had previous problems with RF interference (it still has interference) I included Zen71 for bathroom fan which is the device causing motion interference. I was able to write an automation which disables the motion sensor on light while it turns fan off and seems to be working fairly good now. I also have an hourly automation which turns fan on for 5 min and disables the motion sensor same way prior... my attempt at IoX programs still had issues where it would not work correct and light would still come on sometimes so will see how this one works. I am going to fix that interference  issue properly anyways by trying a zigbee switch to replace fan, and if I still get interference from it, I will instead use a Aquara P1 battery powered motion and place in bathroom.

Zigbee is working very good for me so far, it is a whole new world of devices that can use. For example, I just picked up a philips hue RGB bulb and was able to add no issues not requiring the hub. There are less expensive options available for RGB zigbee lights I can look into.

One feature I have discoverd in HA automation so far that is lacking vs IoX is the ability to check if another automation is running or not. This can be worked around using a helper variable/entity and setting that on when a program starts, and off when finished which other automation can use to check.

I added the Zen 32 as well, but I have not yet configured the 4 Scene buttons. I also found out that if one wants  automate for when one device goes ON, another device goes ON as well, then in Trigger better use State (and not device).

[brians]

24 minutes ago, asbril said:

I added the Zen 32 as well, but I have not yet configured the 4 Scene buttons. I also found out that if one wants  automate for when one device goes ON, another device goes ON as well, then in Trigger better use State (and not device).

I didn't find a way in Zen32 to trigger buttons using state and entities, I had to use device, then can select central scene action for different buttons. Then can just edit the Trigger ID, name it and use Choose option, triggered by ID, and place actions based on trigger.

Using entity names seems preferable to me over device because it doesn't use the long device ID, but in this case seems is only way but not a big deal. Here is above trigger in yaml

platform: device
device_id: c158cecebb3xxxxxxxxxxxblablabla
domain: zwave_js
type: event.value_notification.central_scene
property: scene
property_key: "001"
endpoint: 0
command_class: 91
subtype: Endpoint 0 Scene 001
value: 0
id: button 1 press

[brians]

Spent a while cleaning up IoX removing old programs, variables, network resources, nodeservers... ie. things that are no longer needed. I did upgrade to 5.6.0 with no issues.

I just have bout 8 more ZWave devices to move over... all is pretty trivial. My Automation for Main Bathroom in HA, which has workarounds for GE Motion switch RF interference when switching on Fan seems to be working very well, so I will replicate that in downstairs bathroom. My LED sync programs are working fine between ZWave devices and Insteon KPL buttons.

I also got a couple Aqara Zigbee P1 motions in today which I will experiment with.

New toys on the way...

 

Aqara Presence Sensor FP2, mmWave Radar Wired Motion Sensor

Can integrate in HA apparently via HomeKit, probably will be a better way in future.

SONOFF NSPanel-USW WiFi Smart Scene Wall Switch, plan to flash with ESP Home and setup using available blueprint for Home Assitant.

[DaveStLou]

I've been moving selected z-wave devices and programs to HA but have run into a problem adding my ZEN30 Double Switch. It hangs perpetually interviewing the device when I attempt to include it. If I cancel the interview it ends up showing as a connected, yet non-functional "node" without any device information.  Has anyone gotten a ZEN30 to connect?

I am waiting on a replacement for my Zooz 800 Series Long Range USB Controller that I was unable to upgrade the firmware on. Maybe the new dongle with solve both problems?

Edit: I tried again right after posting this and it did add although insecurely

Edited April 22, 2023 by DaveStLou

[PatPend]

19 hours ago, brians said:

SONOFF NSPanel-USW WiFi Smart Scene Wall Switch, plan to flash with ESP Home and setup using available blueprint for Home Assitant.

That's hawt, me wantee.

[shbatm]

4 hours ago, DaveStLou said:

Has anyone gotten a ZEN30 to connect?

I have 2 ZEN30s and they are a pain to pair. You also need to repair after a firmware update. I think I gave up on one of them pairing securely...

[IndyMike]

23 hours ago, brians said:

I also got a couple Aqara Zigbee P1 motions in today which I will experiment with.

 

Very interested in your appraisal of the Aqara Zigbee motions.  I'm always on the lookout for a good motion sensor replacement (Insteon/Zwave/Zigbee). 

Please share when you have a chance.

[brians]

2 hours ago, IndyMike said:

Very interested in your appraisal of the Aqara Zigbee motions.  I'm always on the lookout for a good motion sensor replacement (Insteon/Zwave/Zigbee). 

Please share when you have a chance.

So far not good, they seem to drop off network after several hours. I searched about this and seems to be a common issue. I will try for a while but may return. The Philips Hue motions are supposed to be way better so will order one of those.

[brians]

On 4/18/2023 at 7:18 AM, vbPhil said:

Very, very true. I was getting bored with the AC over the years, it never gets UI improvements just a functional, boring JAVA program. But now that I've experienced HA with an Insteon PLM connected, the AC is my number one choice. Especially since just witnessing HA creating Insteon Scenes. HA does not write the scene links to devices, and you can only turn a scene on or off. There's no capability to adjust individual ramp and brightness levels on the devices when creating the scene. My Insteon migration to HA has been suspended until further Insteon capabilities have been added to HA, if ever. 

I have not tried it yet but have been reading, and notice there is the Insteon Panel which seems you can do this. It calls scenes by number so you have to keep track of, from what I understand it sets the links up between the devices but I could have misunderstood... not very much info on it. You can do a call service I believe and use the scene number in an automation. I was going to plug in a USB PLM later to test but just have not had time. I am wondering if it can handle individual keypadlinc buttons.

[MrBill]

I just logged into my son's house, it's insteon hub -> HA, here's a few screenshots on the Insteon tab that gets added to the left menu when using a PLM or hub (omitting the left menu to save screen space)...

 

Note: the scene's can be renamed...  These are likely legacy scenes from before HA was in use.  My son uses HA scene's and actually prefers the popcorn effect (he thinks it looks "more automated").

 

I think that covers most screens... if you want to know anything let me know...

[brians]

I just finished moving all my non-insteon devices (zwave, node servers) from IoX to Home Assistant. I was able to replicate functions of all IoX programs, with many actually working more reliable, and simpler to make.

The only thing IoX does now is using programs to keep LEDs in sync, mainly keypadlincs. And turn LED backlights off at night in bedroom, and on again in morning. I keep notification nodeserver running in case I want to use, and plan to keep UD portal in case I need to remote in and do something on phone.

I do notice that response is much faster in HA across the board for everything. I have not tried an EISY so maybe that is faster; I am using a Polisy.

I got Sonoff NSPanel today, decided not to give into temptation and even plug in and try because I had other more important things to do and didn't want to go down that rabbit hole. The USA version fits in single gang box but don't think it will work good in a dual gang along with a regular switch, will see how that works. I am excited to try and if it works well it may be a good candidate to replace my keypadlincs - at $75 ea. they are cheaper too. The keypadlinc are actually one of big reasons I wasn't going to drop Insteon. I have a Zen32 which is ok but is not as good (I notice can get custom engraving on Zen32 buttons now).

[brians]

On 4/22/2023 at 2:43 PM, MrBill said:

I just logged into my son's house, it's insteon hub -> HA, here's a few screenshots on the Insteon tab that gets added to the left menu when using a PLM or hub (omitting the left menu to save screen space)...

Note: the scene's can be renamed...  These are likely legacy scenes from before HA was in use.  My son uses HA scene's and actually prefers the popcorn effect (he thinks it looks "more automated").

 

 

I think that covers most screens... if you want to know anything let me know...

Thanks, that makes more sense when actually seeing screen shots. Can you set a particular keypadlinc key to a switchlinc for example? What about something simpler like switchlinc dimmer to another switchlinc dimmer... you can set each as responder and controller? Will the LEDs stay in sync? I remember an eternity ago when I first go Insteon trying to do this manually without a controller and LEDs did not sync... it was the ISY 99i I got around 2008 which did this correctly and was magical to me at the time

 

[brians]

Replaced Insteon KeypadLinc in Family Room with nspanel.

I also dusted off my two LIFX BR30 and put them in the two ceiling pots in Family Room. I added them  no homekit, then Home Assistant discovered them and I added them in.. I Then made a Light Group with those two entities and added into the nspanel. I even set the hard button at bottom to run a script which toggles the lights and sets to 3000K 85% brightness... otherwise it will turn back on to whatever previous brightness/color they were. I am going to have each button do a different preset maybe.

Can also select color, brightness, and temp from nspanel.

I can control with Homekit via Home Assistant Homekit integration and of course the LIFX app which is more responsive for messing around with them.

Colored lights is just a novelty to me but since I had these LIFX and never used for years, they worked out perfect. I previously had tried to integrate into my old ISY but was not very reliable and couldn't do much with them. If I were to put more light in, may go with Philip$ Hue since I can connect direct to Zigbee.

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by brians