Insteon split home- no device status

[Scott Korvek]

This week I finally split my Insteon network in half.  I had hit the 1024 node limit due to my scene plan. It's not going smoothly and I'm not sure what I need to do to fix it.

I have a Polisy attached to a USB PLM which was previously running everything. I backed that up and copied it over to my new eISY with one of the new USB PLMs that just came out (v1.26). I then deleted scenes and devices (and programs) related to the 1st/2nd floors of my home from the Polisy, leaving 3rd floor/basement and exterior items alone.

I did the reverse on the eISY- deleting everything except 1st/2nd floor.  

I associated the new eISY with the polisy server on the older polisy (only need one running) and set that up with nodeservers and configured all that. So far so good- both polisy and eISY see the status of my Elk system and all the relevant nodeservers, etc.

My polisy and old insteon network works fine. A few devices needed restoring but that's about it.

The eISY not so much. I programmed the new PLM via the eISY - it is listed as connected and shows the correct address (differs from the Polisy PLM) and I can control individual devices from the IoX console. I also used the restore devices function (a few times) to restore links to the new PLM. Also tried restore PLM multiple other times. Also rebooted, etc.  I'll note I'm on 5.6.0 on both polisy and eISY and this house is currently Insteon-only.

Status does not get reported back to IoX.  If I adjust a device from the console, the device responds.  If I manually adjust a device, IoX doesn't pick that up. I have to query the device to get the correct status. If I pick an individual device and look at the device links table, the PLM address is there (and importantly the old PLM address is NOT).  The device link table matches the ISY link table. Same with the PLM links- the device is there.  

Scenes don't work either- unless I manually go to the scene in the admin console and update the Insteon on level for each device in the scene (so that it re-creates missing links).  Thought that would have been covered by the replace/restore process.  Seems like the scenes contained in the ISY didn't get programmed into the PLM.  Everything is listed correctly as controllers/responders with the appropriate scene setting (on level/ramp, etc) but they don't function until I touch each and every member of scene to reconfigure them.  It's going to be a massive pain to reprogram them all manually- each time I update one device, the highlighted member changes (member list reshuffles) and I lose track of which members were re-associated. And then again, after reprogramming, they function, but no status report for scene members- the scene appears to be off from the standpoint of the admin console (unless I turned it on via the admin console).

Doesn't appear to be communications issues- responses to commands sent via the admin console are instantaneous and smooth. I don't see communication failures in the event viewer. Seems to be the devices just don't

I've also tried factory-resetting devices and then restoring them again- no difference.  Can control, scenes aren't restored, and status is not reported back to eISY.

I shutdown the polisy and unplugged the old PLM while I troubleshoot. I've cleared my Java cache/reinstalled the application, etc. 

Any ideas? I know this is a bit out of scope of normal usage but seems to me it would be a similar procedure as for a failed PLM. 

Can anyone confirm that status properly reports back to IoX on one of the new Insteon v1.26 USB PLMs? 

[Techman]

Are your eisy firmware and UI the same version?

The current USB PLM should be hardware version 9E. Where do you see version 1.26?

Did you restore the same backup to both the Polisy and the EISY? 

You mention the both the Polisy and the EISY see the ELK. You can only have one controller associated with a device. 

 

 

[Scott Korvek]

Yes, the UI and firmware are both 5.6.0. 

Yes, v9e in the PLM info/status screen- Revision 2.6 on the hardware itself. (1.26 was a typo sorry)

I took a backup of the polisy and restored that to the eISY before removing devices/programs/scenes as noted so each device is only represented on one system. Then reprogrammed PLM and devices so they are linked to the eISY not the polisy, and did the same on the polisy to ensure everything was removed.

The Elk is a bit irrelevant here- I'm using nodeservers for the Elk - and yes, each IoX (polisy and eisy) are associated with the polyglot server running on the polisy. The Elk nodeserver is installed into each IoX via their respective dashboards, and both the eISY and the polisy see any Elk events immediately (armed status, door violation, etc). That was test #1 prior to even going down this road as I obviously need one comprehensive home security system but both IoXes need to know what's going on in the house overall despite only controlling one part of its lights and HVAC etc. (Elk isn't a scene controller- I use programs and variables for interfaces with anything not purely Insteon).

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, Scott Korvek said:

I backed that up and copied it over to my new eISY with one of the new USB PLMs that just came out (v1.26).

After doing this you would need to "restore PLM"... unfortunately that will restore the entire network.  I honestly don't know what would happen if you tried to delete stuff in ISY B then "restore PLM".   The problem is Insteon writes links in every device that include the PLM's address... you need all those links rewritten which includes the links stored in the PLM and in all devices--- this is what "Restore PLM" does, if it discovers that the PLMs hardware address has changed it needs to update and re-write the links in all devices.

[Scott Korvek]

Right- I did restore PLM- and verified that the devices in each system has the correct PLM address linked to it (devices associated with polisy - old PLM address, devices "moved" to eisy- new PLM address and NOT old) - and that the PLM has a link to the device in its table as well.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Scott Korvek

[kzboray]

I have not tested this and it's just a gut feel. But as @MrBill said, all Insteon devices write links in all devices. Therefore doing what you want to do by simply deleting devices in AC and then restoring the remaining portion of your homes Insteon network would still contain links to the old PLM.

A quick way to verify this would be to pick a Insteon device on the 3rd floor and factory default it, then factory default the new PLM on the eISY and then link the device and verify you have full control.

While I know you can run multiple Insteon networks in a home; I do that myself with a test network and a production, I really don't think you can grab portions of one and simply restore it to another. There's just to much "contamination" of the old system in all associated devices.

I know you are trying to avoid having to build the 3rd floor and basement from scratch, but I don't think you will be able to do it without having ghosts present that will give you fits and create inconsistencies.

If there was a tool that allowed you to edit the link DB on each device you could probably edit the link tables, but the time to do that would I suspect be equal to or greater than just rebuilding the system onto the new PLM. Not to mention you would need to be intimately familiar with the Insteon protocol.

 

[Techman]

@Scott Korvek

When you moved over to the EISY your previous PLM addresses would have moved over as well. Being that you're basically starting with a new system you should delete all your devices and PLM from the EISY, then install the new USB PLM and then install each Insteon device. 

When you restored your previous backup to the EISY it also installed your previous PLM data which is embedded in each Insteon device link table. Doing a restore PLM would write the old PLM data into the EISY. The only workaround is to start anew. 

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Scott Korvek said:

Right- I did restore PLM- and verified that the devices in each system has the correct PLM address linked to it (devices associated with polisy - old PLM address, devices "moved" to eisy- new PLM address and NOT old) - and that the PLM has a link to the device in its table as well.

 

Did you also do restore devices 

[Scott Korvek]

@lilyoyo1 yes

 

@Techman I'm experiencing essentially that - the only way I've gotten anything to work is to DELETE the device and start again- which I don't understand why that should be the case.  As I've said a few times now, I've checked the ISY links table which shows what I would expect AND the PLM links table AND the device links table-  the OLD PLM is NOT present, but the NEW is. What is exactly what I'd expect after replacing the PLM and reprogramming it from the ISY and restoring the devices with the ISY data. Again, I've also factory-reset some devices and reprogrammed them with the ISY data and that didn't work either.

And after doing this I have to rebuild every scene because the device was removed (and the scene doesn't exist outside the ISY anyway) AND touch every line referencing an Insteon device in every program for them to work. (Even though the address is the same and properly appear in the code, the programs don't run).

So basically what is happening here is that if my PLM ever dies and needs to be replaced with a different address (i.e. not a cap replacement), I cannot get my complex system back without rebuilding it from scratch as a restore won't work.  That just doesn't seem right and doesn't match with the wiki instructions

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:File_Menu#Restore_Modem_.28PLM.29

which indicates what I've observed when performing "restore PLM"

Quote

If this menu option is selected, the ISY goes through all INSTEON devices looking for old and new PLM address links. If an old PLM address link is found, it replaces them with the address of the new PLM and adds the corresponding device link to the new PLM.

And then when performing "restore devices"

Quote

Selecting this menu option starts the ISY to use the current configurations settings stored within ISY, and reprograms all the INSTEON devices based on them. Upon completion, this operation reboots ISY and closes Admin Console. This operation is most useful when a PLM is replaced or if INSTEON devices and their logical representations on ISY are out of synch. 

 

When completing though, the admin console does not close and the ISY does not reboot. However, rebooting it myself didn't change anything.  The UI has all the new data but nothing works. It's the scenario described under delete PLM, which is NOT what I did. The backup used was from prior to replacing the PLM and I followed the instructions from the wiki above. the eISY never used the old PLM and the polisy never used the new PLM.

 

[lilyoyo1]

22 minutes ago, Scott Korvek said:

@lilyoyo1 yes

 

@Techman I'm experiencing essentially that - the only way I've gotten anything to work is to DELETE the device and start again- which I don't understand why that should be the case.  As I've said a few times now, I've checked the ISY links table which shows what I would expect AND the PLM links table AND the device links table-  the OLD PLM is NOT present, but the NEW is. What is exactly what I'd expect after replacing the PLM and reprogramming it from the ISY and restoring the devices with the ISY data. Again, I've also factory-reset some devices and reprogrammed them with the ISY data and that didn't work either.

And after doing this I have to rebuild every scene because the device was removed (and the scene doesn't exist outside the ISY anyway) AND touch every line referencing an Insteon device in every program for them to work. (Even though the address is the same and properly appear in the code, the programs don't run).

So basically what is happening here is that if my PLM ever dies and needs to be replaced with a different address (i.e. not a cap replacement), I cannot get my complex system back without rebuilding it from scratch as a restore won't work.  That just doesn't seem right and doesn't match with the wiki instructions

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:File_Menu#Restore_Modem_.28PLM.29

which indicates what I've observed when performing "restore PLM"

And then when performing "restore devices"

 

When completing though, the admin console does not close and the ISY does not reboot. However, rebooting it myself didn't change anything.  The UI has all the new data but nothing works. It's the scenario described under delete PLM, which is NOT what I did. The backup used was from prior to replacing the PLM and I followed the instructions from the wiki above. the eISY never used the old PLM and the polisy never used the new PLM.

 

You shouldn't have to rebuild your system from scratch. If that was the case, you'd see alot more noise about folks having to go through that in addition to everyone else helping you saying that's what needs to be done.

Not sure on your end why things aren't working properly but when you swap plms properly, you should only have to do a file> restore modem>restore devices. If both of those steps still doesn't work, you could try to write updates to each individual device. 

Before proceeding, I'd unplug your eisy and factory reset the plm. Once done and the plm is powered up, plug in the eisy. 

Once rebooted go to file> restore plm> restore devices.

Whatever you do, do not delete plm. When you do a restore modem, the old plm links are overridden 

Edited June 5, 2023 by lilyoyo1

[Techman]

@Scott Korvek In addition to what @lilyoyo1 is suggesting, the sequence you should follow is:

Remove power from the Polisy and the PLM connected to the Polisy

Factory reset the eisy and the USB PLM

Power up the EISY with the new USB PLM 

Restore your backup file to the EISY

Do a "restore devices" on the EISY

Delete the devices from the EISY that you want to keep on the Polisy

Remove power from the EISY and the USB PLM

Power up the Polisy and delete the devices you want to keep on the EISY, then power up the EISY. 

Note: doing a factory reset on a PLM then a restore PLM usually frees up PLM storage space.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Techman

[Scott Korvek]

Thanks- what was done, and did not work. Currently rebuilding from scratch as nothing works.