ALL ON Removed in what Firmware Version of Switchlinc Dimmers?

[junkycosmos]

Long time back we know SH adjusted the Firmware in switches to no longer listen to the ALL ON signal.   This appeared to be a remedation attempt fixing the Phantom ALL ON events those of us with larger networks started to see when using battery powered devices and dual band devices.

Hope you are GREAT.    Can you please remind me what switchlinc dimmer firmware SH removed the ALL ON response.

I know the
2476D SwitchLinc Dimmer v38 is impacted/still responds to the phantom ALL ON
and that
2477D Dual Band SwitcLinc Dimmer v.45 ignores / does not follow the
phantom ALL ON signals

however I cannot recall which firmware it was removed from ..anyone know for sure?

Seems my v.40 Switchlinc Dimmers are impacted (still respond to) however not sure on the v.41 and v.44 Dual Band SwitchLinc Dimmers.

thanks
J

 

[IndyMike]

Hi junkycosmos,

I originally thought that answering your question would require a small amount of research.  I was mistaken.

I was able to find an old database that indicates that the PLM was updated to eliminate ALL ON/OFF commands in version V2.0 in 2015: http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/Insteon_device_list.htm.  Unfortunately, that database doesn't include entries much past that point in time and has no mention of ALL ON/OFF being removed from other devices.

Searching around the web, I found mention of the devices themselves being fixed, but no mention of dates or firmware revisions.  With this lack of detail, I decided to test some of my own devices.  I was disappointed, and I expect that you will be also.

Cutting to the chase - out of 7 devices that I tested, the ONLY device that did not respond to an ALL ON was a new in box KPL Dimmer 2334-222 V.45 (date code 1321).  This is far later in the device cycle than I expected.  Like you, I thought that SWL V.45 devices were immune (Devices produced after 2015).  Not so.  Reviewing my installation - everything is susceptible.  Another good reason for moving more critical devices (fans and such) to other technologies. 

I would up using my old houslinc setup with a USB PLM.  I cleared and linked all of the devices below using houselinc.  None of the devices were included in scenes.  I then used the busyrat communication tool to send All ON/ALL OFF commands to the PLM (broadcast command to scene FF).  Results shown below

I'll leave my setup in place for the moment, in the event there are further questions.  I will need to put things back tomorrow to restore my system.

Devices tested

Device Model Firmware Status SWL-D 2476D 0.4 FAIL SWL-D 2477D 0.41 FAIL SWL-D 2477D 0.45 PASS APL 2456S3 0.38 FAIL SWL-R 2476S 0.2C FAIL KPL-D 2486D 0.41 FAIL KPL-D 2334-222 0.45 PASS
Edit: correct 2477D Firmware 0.45 Dimmer - PASS

Edited July 30, 2023 by IndyMike

[Techman]

@junkycosmos

@IndyMike

You should probably send an email to support@insteon.com attn: Steve Lee with your suggestions and questions. He's quite responsive.

[IndyMike]

A bit more information on the All-on susceptibility. 

1. My original post showed a 2477D SWL with firmware of 0.45 that was susceptible.  That was Incorrect (I've updated the post). 
2. I've found a few additional 2477D's that pass the all-on (V.45 firmware and different rev's).
3. KPL dimmer (V.45 that passes)
4. Inlinelinc that passes (V.44 Rev 7.2)
5. Newer modules appear to have date codes reversed (shown in orange).  Original date codes were YYWW.  Newer appear to be WWYY.
6. I was surprised that my newer on/off modules (2019) failed the test.  So surprised that I tested 2 to make sure.  These did come with a piece of "yellow tape " sticking up from the side like and antenna(???).  Maybe this was to signify they were an older rev??
7. All of the PLM's that I tested transmitted the ALL-ON/ALL-OFF codes using the Busyrat command line tool.  I was surprised by the Rev 2.1 PLM as it was reported to have been "fixed".
8. For some reason Houselinc refused to recognize the Rev 2.1 PLM.  I manually linked the PLM to 1 affected device and 1 non-affected.  When a All-on/off was issued, the affected device operated.
9. I have not checked my current PLM (firmware 0.9E) as it is currently running the house.
10. I did verify that my 2457D2 LL-D is susceptible.  I have this plugged in next to the ISY PLM and use it as an All-On Detector.  It worked well when I triggered it with the Busyrat All-on command.  Isy was not aware until it polled the device 5 minutes later.  At that point another program shut the house down.

If anyone sees any glaring errors in the table, please let me know.  I often miss the forest for the trees.

I do plan to test my ISY PLM at some point in the future.  I figure I've tested my family's patience enough for one weekend.  Also have ribs to cook and brain cells to kill.

Edit 7/32/23:  Turns out my ISY plm has the same firmware as my older Rev 2.1 plm.  All respond to the all on/all off.  Updated the table below.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by IndyMike
Updated PLM testing

[IndyMike]

17 hours ago, Techman said:

@junkycosmos

@IndyMike

You should probably send an email to support@insteon.com attn: Steve Lee with your suggestions and questions. He's quite responsive.

Hi Techman,

I've worked with Steve a number of times over the years.  He is very good.  I did not realize that he moved to the new Insteon team - that is great news going forward.

With all that said, this was one of those things I needed to see for myself.  I've had enough "all on" occurrences that I put a sensing device in place with a polling program to monitor it.  That approach appears to work well to "shut down" after an occurrence, but recovering after the shut down is still an issue.  This is a major reason why I began to move away from Insteon and the ISY.

By knowing specifically which devices are/are-not affected, I can now allocate things in a more thoughtful manner.  Since the ISY994 won't be supporting new modules, I need to utilize the stock I have efficiently. 

[IndyMike]

It turns out I was doing this the hard way.  After poking around the ADMIN page I found the "All on/All Off" buttons on the "My Lighting" tab.  These produce the same Broadcast Group commands that I have been executing using the busyrat tool.  I didn't know (or forgot) these existed on the ISY. 

In addition to the insteon All-on/Off commands, the ISY will execute On commands to X10 and Zwave devices.

If you wish to test your system for susceptible devices:

1. Disable your programs (eliminate program interference)
2. Execute the All-on command
3. Execute a Query-ALL (from the same page).  The ISY assumes that all devices were turned on.  You need to query to determine which devices DID NOT RESPOND.
4. Review the My Lighting Page for devices that are off.  You can sort for the device state.  Devices that are off did not respond to the All-On command.  Do not include Keypads unless the primary button is off.
5. Execute the All-off command before your power company crosses you off their Christmas card list.
6. Re-enable your programs.

This will obviously NOT return your devices to their original state.  If that's a concern, don't do it.

 

 

[junkycosmos]

thank you @IndyMike for all the testing and tables here !   Also @Techman for the heads up about Steve.

 

As reference my boated (as in too many devices) Insteon / Zwave does pretty well overall.   The ALL-ONs which started for me many years ago have greatly reduced as I have dropped out many of my batt devices.   I am down to having 1 every 1-2 months typically.    I have put numerious work arounds in place to ensure the ALL ONs do not cause significant issues.   Some examples include removing/readding the TSTATs when in auto mode with moderate temps set (since the ALL ONs sometimes cause the TSTATs to bounce to whatever they were at when included in ISY), replacing I/O lincs I had on skylights and furnace zones with mimos, replacing key switches with ones, few others over past 8yrs I am not recalling at the moment.     

 

I also created ALL ON and ALL OFF  "detectors" with 2 seperate i/o lincs - wiring the relay to sensor input of each unit then leaving relay in state which would be toggled by the signal and lastly setting program that sends a warning text when changed.    The phantom signals always impact the relay and not the sensor but you can use the sensor to "reset" the detector.

 

Silly that I never tested the ALL ON button from ISY devices page - wondering if that does same as the protocol "crash" or whatever we call it that creates the phantom ALL ON ?

I can also report that SwitchLinc Dual-Band Relays starting with 46.xx.xx.xx do not react to all ons 

[IndyMike]

On 8/1/2023 at 11:22 AM, junkycosmos said:

Silly that I never tested the ALL ON button from ISY devices page - wondering if that does same as the protocol "crash" or whatever we call it that creates the phantom ALL ON ?

 

You can count me in that Silly group as well.  The "All On" does not work from most of the ISY pages.  Just the "Network" and "My lighting" pages.

As far as the commands are concerned, they are the same as what was documented back in the 2014 time frame and they have the same effect - wist 1 important difference.  If you execute the All-On from the ISY, it knows about it and reflects the state in all of the devices.  When the phantom all on occurs, the ISY has no knowledge.

Looking at the commands in the event viewer:

1) The following is a "Fast ON" Group Broadcast command to my Basement scene #27.  This is the basic command for activating any scene.

Wed 08/02/2023 12:10:09 PM : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 27 CF 12 00

Wed 08/02/2023 12:10:09 PM : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.27 CF 12 00 06          LTON-F (00)

2) The following is a "Fast ON" Group Broadcast command to #FF.  EVERY DEVICE LINKED to THE PLM WILL RESPOND (unless the command has been removed).

Wed 08/02/2023 09:17:29 AM : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 FF CF 12 00

Wed 08/02/2023 09:17:29 AM : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.FF CF 12 00 06          LTON-F (00)

Hard to believe this still exists - in the PLM, in Devices, in the ISY.