Z-Wave Insteon scene question

[garybixler]

I have a scene set up with a Z-wave nano on/off switch and a button on an Insteon 8 button wall switch. Both are defined as controllers. If the scene is executed both device respond as expected. When the button on the switch is turned on the z-wave device also comes on as expected. However if the z-wave device is turned on the scene doesn't get turned on so the button never gets lit. The z-wave device does show on in the scene. I am using a program to have the scene turn on/off from the state of the z-wave device. Was wondering if this normal for mixed intsteon z-wave devices or am I missing something? Tried many settings with no results.

Thanks for any info.

[trevorst]

That does seem to be normal with the latest Zwave release. I have three different mfgs Zwave devices and all three do the same thing. Only turns the controlled devices via scene call but also turns light when using switch.  I think you may be able to have the light turn on via scene control by including the Zwave switch in the scene also. I remember seeing a post on this but have never tried it as I have the opposite issue, would like the light not to turn on from the switch.

[garybixler]

It appears that a z-wave device can't be added as a controller even though the option is there and appears to be added that way.

[oberkc]

I have the same issue.  Some time in the past, I recall having a discussion with UD about this and came away with the impression that this was due to the fact that secondary buttons on a keypad switch cannot be directly controlled from the ISY.  Of course, there is no direct link between the z-wave switch and keypad button.  So...even though this keypad button is in a "scene", it appears that the ISY is trying to mimic an Insteon link between the z-wave and Insteon devices by sending direct commands to Insteon devices "linked" from z-wave devices.   In my experience so far, this problem is limited to keypad secondary buttons.

That is my theory and I am sticking to it.  

[garybixler]

I have found that if a secondary button is part of a scene it will respond to the scene status of on or off by being lit or not. I did try an Insteon on/off module and had the same results. The z-wave device does not become a controller for any device in the scene even if added as such. No idea if that is by design or an oversite.

[oberkc]

22 hours ago, garybixler said:

The z-wave device does not become a controller for any device in the scene even if added as such.

I have a scene with a Z-wave switch (controller), secondary keypad button (controller) and an Insteon micro module (responder).  When the z-wave switch is turned on, the micro module responds, but the keypad button does not.  Is your experience different?

[IndyMike]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:16 AM, oberkc said:

I have the same issue.  Some time in the past, I recall having a discussion with UD about this and came away with the impression that this was due to the fact that secondary buttons on a keypad switch cannot be directly controlled from the ISY.  Of course, there is no direct link between the z-wave switch and keypad button.  So...even though this keypad button is in a "scene", it appears that the ISY is trying to mimic an Insteon link between the z-wave and Insteon devices by sending direct commands to Insteon devices "linked" from z-wave devices.   In my experience so far, this problem is limited to keypad secondary buttons.

That is my theory and I am sticking to it.  

I agree that the ISY cannot directly address a KPL secondary button.  In order to control a secondary button, it needs to be included in a scene.  I am curious why the ISY isn't creating a "scene" for Insteon devices and an "association" for Zwave devices.

Either way, it should be an easy thing to determine from the event viewer when the scene is activated by the Z-wave controller.

Scene Activation - The 00.00.XX device address is indicative of a Scene.  The "CF" flags also specifies a scene command but I am to lazy to decode this AM.

Fri 12/01/2023 09:15:15 AM : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 13 CF 11 00
Fri 12/01/2023 09:15:15 AM : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.13 CF 11 00 06          LTONRR (00)

 

Device Direct Addressing: The 1A.5D.C7 address is an individual device in my system (member of the scene above).  The "0F" Flag also specify a "direct command".  Other indicators of a direct command are the 3rd line (02 50) which is a response from the target device.  Scene commands (above) do not request a response.

Fri 12/01/2023 09:16:24 AM : [INST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 1A 5D C7 0F 11 F7
Fri 12/01/2023 09:16:24 AM : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 1A.5D.C7 0F 11 F7 06          LTONRR (F7)
Fri 12/01/2023 09:16:25 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 1A.5D.C7 53.BC.3A 27 11 F7    LTONRR (F7)
Fri 12/01/2023 09:16:25 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 1A.5D.C7-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

I do not know/understand how the ISY is activating Zwave "associated" devices.  I do not currently have a Zwave/ISY installation to test.  But I am very curious for future installations.

One last comment - I do remember a @lilyoyo  post from years ago indicating that Zwave controllers should be added to a scene 1st.  I had always abided by that when I had my mixed system.  Have no idea if it still applies.

IM

[garybixler]

@oberkcJust tried your config but still I am not getting the zwave device to control an insteon on/off module. If i look at the insteon device it does show that it is a responder to the zwave device but does not respond to the swave device. If I look at the zwave device I do not see that the membership includes being a controller. It was added as a controller and shows that by being printed in red. Does your zwave device show it being a controller in the membership? This is what shows on my zwave device.

 

 

 

Just tried adding the zwave first but no difference. All I see is that the zwave does not get added as a controller just a responder to the scene.

Event viewer response.  Zwave event ignored doesn't look good

 

 

I am using the eisy with IoX 5.7.1. But this setup of a zwave device being a controller has never worked in the past.

 

[oberkc]

5 hours ago, garybixler said:

Just tried your config but still I am not getting the zwave device to control an insteon on/off module.

Well.  Interesting...my memory must be failing more than I remembered.  I would have made a very large bet on my scene being as I had described originally.  I think I will continue to insist that I have a good memory and, instead, that something has changed in one of the ISY updates over the years.  But as of now, as I look at my scenes, they are exactly as you describe, with Z-wave with in red, added as controller, but showing as responder in the membership list.  

This zwave switch location has also been the one with which I have experimented.   I think this is the third z-wave switch I have tried here, all in an attempt to better understand z-wave devices and trying to get this scene to work.  Perhaps a prior version of this switch worked as I remember but the current version does not.  Because of my experience, I have not expanded my use of Z-wave devices as controllers beyond this switch.

Perhaps I am loosing my mind.