Motion sensor functional question

[MarkJames]

Well, I've run into a bit of an understanding problem.

 

I have a 2420 that I'm using in my masterbathroom to turn on the lights.

 

The thing of it is that I'm trying NOT to use the 2420's built in off command. The reason for this is that I'm trying to get the lights to turn on for say 15 minutes at 100% during the morning - it has to be long enough so that the lights don't turn off while the sensor can't see you in the shower. Then on for like 5 minutes during the day, again at 100%, but for only 3 minutes at 20% during the early hours for when you get up at night for a quick pee.

 

So my sensors are Rev 2.0 so I can program them using ISY. I've set the jumpers so that they don't send an off command, and they're programmed from ISY.

 

The basic setup I've chosen and there's probably a better way is this...

 

The sensor is controller of a scene with the bathroom light as responder but the light is set for 20%.

 

When the sensor turns the light on a program runs and checks the time. If the time is daytime it runs a different program that adjusts the scene to 100%, waits 15 or 5 minutes depending on the time of day and then turns it off. If the time is nighttime then it runs a program that simply waits 3 minutes then turns it off., leaving the scene at 20% The reason for the second program running is a bit legacy in that I didn't want the sensor OFF message retriggering the program and running the else effectively canceling the wait.

 

The problem is that with the motion sensor jumpered to not send an off - I'm confused as to whether ISY will ALWAYS see it as on.

 

Any thoughts on a better way to accomplish this? and any thoughts on the limitations of using a 2420 in ISY that doesn't send an OFF?

 

Actually, I guess more significantly, what does it mean to ISY when the sensor doesn't send an OFF?. Does this mean that it won't send an OFF message to its responders but will still report its own status as OFF? Or does it simply not send an OFF anymore? Can ISY still expect to see the sensor status OFF after the timeout delay set in the sensor?

 

 

mark

[Sub-Routine]

Hi Mark,

 

The Status of the sensor will always be On. The MS will send another On only after it would have sent an Off which is dependent on the Timeout setting.

 

So your program should watch for Control rather than Status.

 

Rand

 

Actually, I guess more significantly, what does it mean to ISY when the sensor doesn't send an OFF?. Does this mean that it won't send an OFF message to its responders but will still report its own status as OFF? Or does it simply not send an OFF anymore? Can ISY still expect to see the sensor status OFF after the timeout delay set in the sensor?

 

 

mark

[MarkJames]

OK.. that makes sense..... and it's an easy enough change.

 

Can you think of a more efficient way to do this, though? Have a motion sensor trigger a scene with different on levels and different time outs dependent on the time of day?

 

I had originally done this with programs alone - not letting the motion sensor directly control the light. The only problem with that is there is a slight lag between the sensor message and the program execution.

 

I'd also tried setting a program to adjust the on level of the scene dependent on the time of day but it seems that the adjusted on level only 'sticks' till the light is turned off - so the next time it turns on it goes back to the local on level.

 

The two things that drive me craziest with HA are motion sensors and trying to determine if someone is coming into the house or leaving the house.

 

mark

[oberkc]

I had originally done this with programs alone - not letting the motion sensor directly control the light. The only problem with that is there is a slight lag between the sensor message and the program execution.

 

I am assuming that putting the motion sensor in a scene will cause your light to react to the off commands as well as the on. Therefore, I assume that using a program is your best option

 

I'd also tried setting a program to adjust the on level of the scene dependent on the time of day but it seems that the adjusted on level only 'sticks' till the light is turned off - so the next time it turns on it goes back to the local on level.

 

My first instinct is to create program folders...one for each time range in which you are interested. The condition would be:

 

if:

from beginning time to end time

Make sure that there are no times throughout the day not covered by one folder. Make sure that there are not time periods covered by more than one folder.

 

Create a timer program, not in any folder, like:

 

if

then
wait 15 minutes
turn light off

else

 

within each folder, create a simple program like:

 

if
control motion sensor is turned on

then
turn light to TBD level
run timer program (then path)

else

 

the TBD level would be whatever level you choose for the applicable folder time range.

[Sub-Routine]

Darrell has a very complete set of programs in the Wiki: ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Using_Motion_Sensors_in_Bathrooms.

 

I will add that using longer ramp rates lessens the effect of program lag.

 

Rand

[MarkJames]

Thanks, Oberkc... I'd actually gone down the path of enabled folders depending on time of day. The thing is that I'm really trying to avoid programs for turning the light on because of the lag issue. I see your point, Rand, as far as making the ramp rate longer but personally I don't much care for the ramp on effect outside of things like a movie mode or dinner mode or something like that.

 

I like having the sensor turn it on as part of the scene as that's pretty much instantaneous. The light switch is just inside the door - so when you walk in and the light doesn't pop right on - which is what happens with programs - you tend to hit the button - which isn't a big deal but it defeats the purpose of the sensor. The other issue with the sensor is that if you have a long off time and someone manually turns the light off then the sensor won't send another ON until the delay times out - so a short delay is preferable. On the other hand, if you go out of sight of the sensor - like in the shower - a long delay is needed. It gets unwieldy.

 

What I'm trying to accomplish is to have the sensor turn on a different scene depending on the time of day.

 

I'd hoped that I could use the ISY adjust scene program control to change the on level for a scene. What I'd originally written was simply a program so that at 10pm an adjust scene happened that turned the level of the bathroom light to 20% and then at 6am it turned it back to 100%. But I misunderstood this function and it doesn't work the way I'd anticipated - it just turns the light on to the level I specify at that time - in other words it's not changing the on level associated with the responder link - it's merely adjusting the scene light levels. This is also a useful function - but doesn't help me.

 

So what I'm doing now is making the sensor the controller of a scene with the bathroom light in it set to 20% So the sensor will always turn it on at 20% but during the day the program will jump in a moment later and ramp it up to 100%. This works for the most part - I'm just trying to come up with a more creative way.

 

I don't know if it's been suggested before but it might be a nice function to add to ISY so that you could actually have the ISY write or change links and scene memberships programatically. That would allow you to have scene levels change depending on device settings or even allow you to change it so a button controls one light during the day but another during the evening.... could be very cool. It wouldn't entirely solve my motion sensor issue as the sensor wouldn't be in linking mode so it couldn't be changed directly... ie I wouldn't be able to change the timeout, but the responder record in the controlled light could have its on level changed without needing the sensor record changed.

 

I'll look at the motion sensor programs recommended and see if that helps me any.

 

[edit]

I just looked through the bathroom programs in the wiki. They are, indeed, very complete. Makes me want to add a wireless contact to the bathroom door just to run the fan The only thing is it still has the issue of program lag. I'm going to have to do some benchmarks and see how long it takes as a scene member vs as a program and decide what to do.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

mark

[ryarber]

There is a much better way. If you have the jumper set up to only send on commands, then set up a scene with the MS as the controller. This will eliminate the aggravation of the lag time ti takes for the program to activate the light. The MS will turn on the lights, but it can't turn them off. You use a program to turn it off.

 

Do away with your old programs and write new ones using the "set scene" command in the ISY. At something like sunrise , you can have the lights gently come on with a ramp of say 90 seconds to 100%. At something like 9 AM , you can set the ramp to your standard 2 second ramp. Then at midnight, you can set the light level to 20%. The ISY sets the levels and ramp rates via the programs. You need to know the set scene command needs to be se up using the motion sensor's name as the controller and not the scene name. If you use the scene name as the controller, it will not work like you want it to.

 

I think you'll like this method much better. You'll Lso need to set up a program such that the lights will be turned off after a set time. It is a simple program. Itshould look like this.

 

When

Conteol 'Bathroom motion sensor' is switched on

then

Wait 10 minutes

Turn 'bathroom light' off

 

When the program is running, triggering the MS again will restart the program and keep the lights on as long as it is sensing motion.

[MarkJames]

ahhh... ok.. that's something I've yet to try.

 

I'll give that a whirl and see if it does what I'm after.

 

I never thought of setting the scene level on the motion sensor.

 

mark

[ryarber]

So how about a follow-up? Did you get it to work? It should.

[MarkJames]

Hi there!

 

Funny you should have posted that. I was just standing in the shower thinking to myself that it was working just right.

 

Thanks very much for your help!

 

I've since changed several other sensors in the house to work the same way - ones in hallways and in stairwells so that they turn on nice and dim during the early hours of the AM but full brightness during the pre-sleep evening hours.

 

Running them like this is far better, in a sense, than running them purely off the sensor. Varying on levels, and adjustable durations make them far more 'personal'. The only drawback, of course, is that without the ISY running the lights will turn on but never turn off. Hopefully that won't end up being a problem.

 

It's interesting that it worked using the MS as the controller in the program but not using the scene in which the MS was the controller - which is the way I first set out to do this. I'm not sure I entirely understand why that is but wtf... so long as it works.

 

 

Thanks again,

 

mark

 

T

[ryarber]

This, IMHO, makes scenes much more versatile. You can not only vary how the scene behaves as a whole, but you can also vary how each individual scene controller effects the scene.

 

This way, you only might need one scene for bathroom light control, but the scene can behave differently based on which controller triggers it. You can also have an entirely different behavior if the ISY activates the scene via a program.

 

There's a lot more functionality to scenes than meets the eye.