Not seeing X10 in event viewer

[glacier991]

I know it probably seems like fingernails on a chalkboard to the UD folks.. But I still have a number of X10 devices which, thanks to my XTB-IIR are still pretty functional.

I am bringing up a brand new eisy after enjoying a good ISY992i system. Just decided to start fresh.

Am at the point where I am starting to play with a few X10 devices. In my experimentation, I notice I cannot see X10 commands in any viewer, it is as if they do not exist.

I note I have a just purchased and am using an  Insteon PLM newest model.

Is this an Insteon issue or a UD issue? Or is it the PLM?

Is there a way to keep the new (serial) one I have and still get the X10 line activity into the eisy event viewers somehow (like using the unused port my serial PLM leaves behind?)

I can more or less work around this but sure would be nice to have that data.

Chris

 

 

 

[Brian H]

Your new PLM is a 2413U or a 2413S with their USB to serial adapter? Wired with the special pin outs  for the 2413S?

Do you have a screen that gives you the firmware version in the PLM  by chance? Did you have the optional A10/X10 module add on in the ISY994i?

I don't have an eisy but have seen it used the USB interface and didn't use a serial port directly.

I don't think Insteon changed anything in the latest 2413 PLM to remove X10 reception.

[glacier991]

My PLM is the serial version, just bought in December and is the newest version. I am using the USB to serial cable adapter. I do not have the ability to see the PLM firmware that I can find. I have the X10 module. My X10 works.

After my post last evening, I continued to fiddle with the X10 device (which happens to be an old Insteon switch that I could (and did) force an X10 address on, so it is now is in essence an X10 switch. I added it to the tree as a a Generic X10 device, and it was accepted with my added X10 address A1.  Eisy can control the switch - and the event view does show an X10 transmit signal of "A1 ON".

But.... using my X10 Pro Maxi Controller, which places an X10 command on the powerline, while it does in fact act to toggle the switch as it should, its X10 command shows up nowhere on the event log when I do so.

Trying to figure out why that is so.

 

Edited January 24 by glacier991

[xlurkr]

Is there any chance that your 994i was using a 2412S PLM?  When I switched to a 2413S in my main house years ago I noticed that its receive sensitivity was way lower.  I had experiences just like yours.  But I didn't care too much because I didn't rely on X10 at the time; I was just experimenting.

I just checked with my 2413U connected to my Polisy here in my apartment (different location and setup) and I can turn A1 on and off with my Elk, and see the status correctly reflected on the Polisy.  My Elk is using an XTB-IIR as the interface.  I  can look at the logs if you want, but I can't imagine there isn't an entry for each X10 event.

-Tom

[glacier991]

Even when I plug my Maxi Controller directly into the XTB-RII port (which blasts out  super strong signal onto the powerline (and which I might add works on the device 200 feet from the house) still nada on the event viewer.

Me? I think insteon dropped the receive function for X10 in their newest serial PLM. What I see in the events tab when I see an X10 command is generated internal to eisy and does not rely on a signal being received by the PLM. Anyway that is my current hypothesis.

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

Chris

Edited January 25 by glacier991

[glacier991]

I might reiterate the problem is NOT that my X10 modules do not work, it is just that the only X10 commands that show up in the event viewer have to be eisy generated.

[Brian H]

If they changed the X10 commands in firmware. It should have caused a new firmware version number.

I don't use an eisy. In an ISY994i. It can be found in the Administrative Console, Diagnostics, PLM Info/Status. Should give you the six digit Insteon ID number, firmware revision (mine is 9E), connected if being used by the controller.

I seriously doubt they removed the received X10 message from the PLM to the controller and left the transmit X10 message from the controller to the PLM.

If you use the Insteon Forums. You could also ask there. https://forum.insteon.com/forum. Or there own support address   https://www.insteon.com/support

Over the years. I have seen occasionally an X10 received problem with the PLM. Most times it was the hardware in the PLM having issues.

[paulbates]

4 minutes ago, Brian H said:

Over the years. I have seen occasionally an X10 received problem with the PLM. Most times it was the hardware in the PLM having issues.

It happened to me at my last house. In  2007 ish I bought original Insteon devices and used in x10 mode and eventually migrated. Some were re/de-programmed successfully. Some were buried, like inline lincs in the ceiling or attic and wasn't going back up there to press something to reprogram x10. Other times I got unexplained X10 in my log but given my x10 origins, I just programmed around it

[xlurkr]

I decided to check my log, and the X10 events are there.  Do you have an X10 node defined on your Eisy?  I do.  I also have a Polisy and not an Eisy.  My PLM is a 2413S, V2.1.  Just documenting possible differences.differences.

-Tom

[xlurkr]

And the XTB-IIR (controlled by Elk) and PLM are plugged into the same outlet (the XTB via a power strip).  The X10 ApplianceLinc is across the room in another outlet.

-Tom

[glacier991]

My PLM is a 2413S, Ver 2.7, and the Firmware is 9E.

Edited January 25 by glacier991

[IndyMike]

4 hours ago, glacier991 said:

My PLM is a 2413S, Ver 2.7, and the Firmware is 9E.

Interesting - your firmware is the same as my Ver 2.5 PLM with a date code of 1619.  I use both send/receive X10 on a ISY994

[xlurkr]

Mine also says v9E.  I have the Smarthome version of the Maxi Controller, and I can give that a try this weekend with and without the XTB-IIR, and also plugged into various outlets, to see what happens.  What I can't do is test a 2.7 PLM, since mine is a 2.1.

-Tom

[Brian H]

9E has been the standard firmware from back at least to V2.1.

Hardware changes did happen. Like changing C7 and C13 to one made for switching power supplies. Serial chip on the serial daughter board to one with a better ESD rating. Now a redesigned serial daughter board. With some added surge protection on the two serial signals.

My ISY994I with 9E in the PLM. No problem with sending or receiving X10 and showing in the Event Viewer.

Edited January 26 by Brian H
Change PLM revision I have tested

[glacier991]

I think I may have figured this one out....

It possibly has to do with the house wiring here. I inherited this large 4000 sq ft house. The service entrance at the interior breaker panel(S) - there are two rather large ones, EACH has it own power feed.

I am believing that they are not duplicated legs of a single power feed to the house split between the 2 panels .(Maybe somehow a three phase main input separated out into separate 240 V panels that are not interconnected.)

I have the XTB-IIR wired out of one panel. I think that the outlets I have been using for the PLM are out of the other panel.

Does this make sense? If so, I might have to group any X-10 devices onto the panel distribution with the PLM attached... making staying with x-10 even more unlikely. Of course this also affects Insteon on the powerline side of the dual nand, leaving it Xmit only if they are not on the right panel distribution with the PLM. (More Z wave).

Interested in your collective thoughts or experiences in any setup like this. (Candidly, having done my share of wiring the electrician who wired this house was not someone I would hire.)

Edited January 27 by glacier991
additions and corrections

[IndyMike]

@glacier991,

It's possible that you have two separate power feeds.  That would normally require two separate power meters.

I doubt you have three phase.  Your cross phase voltage would be down in the 208VAC range since you are running at 120 degree phase (not 180).  Passive couplers (and possibly the XTB) would not function correctly.

If you do have separate power drops from the utility, everything you said above does apply.  Insteon can be RF coupled across drops. 

I have not done multi phase X10 coupling in 20 years.  I think Brian is likely your expert here.

[glacier991]

Thanks IndyMike.... the Insteon question...does that required 2 SignalLincs? I have 1, but understand they are out of production for a 2nd one.

I sort of lost interest years back when my isy install here started running into problems, it worked but I gave up with some issues. This time I will stop until have each current issue worked out.

(I am also starting to wonder if some of my old Z Wave devices (mainly sensors) just were never designed to play nice with the current Z-Wave stuff and eisy... 'nother story, shelved until I get this figured out.)

Oh, and, I just have a single meter.

Edited January 27 by glacier991

[Brian H]

The passive X10 SignaLinc device. That is hard wired between the two Lines?

I have seen posts where the capacitor has failed and the coupler is not working. In the 2406H.  https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/28722-anyone-dissect-a-2406h-phase-coupler/ . The X10 4816H used a 18uH coil and a .1uF capacitor.

As there where two. 4816H was the X10 and 2406H was the Insteon

X10 signals are close enough to the Insteon signals. Both would usually work fine.

You can still find the X10 4816H on sites like Ebay. If IndyMike thinks it would help your X10 issue.

Edited January 27 by Brian H
Add information Learn to Spell

[paulbates]

I asked recently on the Insteon Forum, and "Insteon John" provided the schematic for the signalinc with the parts listed. I made my own.

Follow this link to the Insteon forum, and scroll down to the bottom, I provide the parts list from mouser.com there. It's 2 very small parts that can go in a single gang work box on the side of the panel. An electrician can do it if you don't want to.

10 hours ago, glacier991 said:

the Insteon question...does that required 2 SignalLincs? I have 1, but understand they are out of production for a 2nd one.

If you have one meter then I'm guessing only 2 legs feed the house and only need to add one of these. You could try with one and see what happens. But if you choose to try, buy 2 sets of parts... the shipping is more than the parts.

[IndyMike]

@glacier991, Brian's point about the capacitor is a good one - caps do go bad. 

Unfortunately, you should not need the Signalinc with the XTB-II.  The XTB is a much better coupler than any passive device will ever be.

Let's focus on the X10 signals in the event viewer - you mentioned that you have a Maxi-Contoller.  Please verify that it works (activate a lamp with it), then plug it into the same outlet as the PLM and activate it.

1) If you still don't see X10 events in the event viewer we'll call this a PLM/Eisy issue.

2) If you do see events we'll need to troubleshoot your wiring/coupling configuration.

[glacier991]

I do not see X10 events in eisy event viewer even when the PLM and Maxi Controller share the same outlet. The maxi controller is working as the light is on and I have verified x10 devices can respond to it.

Edited January 27 by glacier991

[IndyMike]

3 hours ago, glacier991 said:

I do not see X10 events in eisy event viewer even when the PLM and Maxi Controller share the same outlet. The maxi controller is working as the light is on and I have verified x10 devices can respond to it.

That should eliminate your home wiring and coupling.

What we do not know is whether a V2.7 PLM can receive X10, OR whether the current EISY can display X10 in the event viewer.

I can't help with either.  We need other forum members to help here...  I anyone has a V2.7 PLM that receives X10, OR a EISY - please reply to this thread.

[glacier991]

The issue is now, for me, of general or academic curiosity as I gave up on the X10 switch and put in a Zwave one that is  working beautifully, and can also be used in a scene.

I think I have so many signal suckers in my house that trying to filter them would be like playing whack a mole. II may use some X-10 where it works, but not planning to waste an entire day (as I have) trying to run down "why's? and how comes?.

Thanks everyone for your assistance here, and it might be nice for a larger audience to know what the new PLM's can and cannot do.

 

Chris

[xlurkr]

X10 and Insteon have one advantage over Z-Wave that I'm hanging onto - you can plug in and unplug switch and dimmer modules at will, without upsetting the network.  This has value for those who set up powered holiday decorations or do ad hoc lighting and/or device control for special events.  I do a little of both.  But for permanent home installation, it's more a matter of reliability and cost, and whatever technology is best suited will win, and should.

Also, the X10 maxi controllers are darn handy.  They can issue ~256 distinguishable on/off commands that many (mostly obsolete, admittedly) HA controllers can respond to, plus dimming commands.  I'm not aware of any other well-defined home automation protocol that offers that versatility.

-Tom

[glacier991]

All excellent points. I have a bunch of holiday lights I control using lamp controllers. I just will not bank on eisy giving me a schedule for them.