Can't Control Scenes with ISY99i

[gadgetfreak]

I have two scenes. The first has 3 appliance lincs, one outletlinc all as responders and a button on each of two KPLs as controllers. The second is just made up of 5 icon switches.

 

I start by querying the devices in the scene to get current status, Let's say they all say on. I then choose the scene and select Fast Off. The status' of all devices change to off, but nothing happens to any of the lights.

 

The above is happening to both scenes so I guess it doesn't matter whether there are KPL buttons as controllers or not.

 

Obviously, this is very important to me because I have programs that need to activate the scenes. I am not sure if they will work if I can't manually adjust the scene in ISY.

 

What am I doing wrong? Thanks.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello gadgetfreak!

 

1. I am a little unclear: do you also have the same problem if you use the KPL buttons to activate those scenes?

2. Please try Tools | Diagnosis | Scene Test ... this should give an indication of reliability between the PLM and ISY

3. Please use Tools | Diagnosis | Show PLM Links Table to get a list of records in your PLM. Once done, click on the Count button and let me know how many records you have in your PLM

4. Do you have any nodes with green 0101 icons?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[gadgetfreak]

OK. This is interesting. To answer your questions:

 

1) I do NOT have the problem when pressing the KPL button in the scene. That works fine.

 

2) On the two scenes I mentioned before, they both failed every device. I had another scene I tried where only 3 of 15 succeeded.

 

3) 11.

 

4) No.

 

What else can I check/do? Thanks for the help.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi gadgetfreak,

 

Thanks for the answers ... they will make the troubleshooting much easier. First of all, 11 seems way too low of a record count for the number of devices/scenes you have. So, the first thing I suggest is to do a File | Restore Modem (PLM). After you are done with this, check the record count again and make sure it's more than 11. For your installation, assuming 6 button KPLs, and 9 other devices, you should have at least 25 records in your PLM.

 

Now, based on the scene test results, I do think that you have some signal issues as well. The first thing I recommend is to plug in one of the ApplianceLincs which fails right into the same strip as the PLM. If this solves the problem, then we would have to figure out if the problem is signal strength or noise. To test signal strength, if you have any Access Points, plug it right on top of the PLM and retest. If that does not help, then the issue is noise.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[gadgetfreak]

OK, I will test everything you suggested later today. If this helps, I have a total of 5 KPLs, 3 appliancelincs, 2 dual band lamplics, and a bunch of switchs (most icons but some better) - around 20-25 that control loads and another approx 5 that are used as slaves.

 

If it is noise, how is that rectified?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi gadgetfreak,

 

If noise, then the process is a little arduous. Basically, you must turn off suspicious devices (plasma tvs, battery chargers, CFLs, etc.) one at a time to see which one is causing the noise. And, once found, you will have to put that device on a FilterLinc.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[gadgetfreak]

I am in the middle if doing a reset on the PLM now. But I few more points I want to make to help with this process.

 

1) I mentioned I have 5 KPLs. They are all 8-button.

2) The two in my bedroom seem to be having "issues". Sometimes they all have green flags in the web interface and sometimes, although they respond to commands and the buttons work, after pressing a button, they will flash 5 times.

3) One of the scenes I was having a problem with has been resolved once I deleted and recreated the scene. This was just 5 wall switches.

4) The other scene which was 3 appliancelincs and one outletlinc still will not work when the bedroom KPLs are part of the scene. However, when I remove the KPLs from the scene, the scene works fine.

5) I actually have 5-6 filterlincs on all my computer and TV equipment already.

 

So I am thinking that the two bedroom KPLs are the problem. But how do I fix it?

 

Also, on a related note, do you recommend including individual KPL buttons as part of a scene or rather initiating a program that controls a scene?

 

Thanks again for all the help.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello gadgetfreak,

 

At this point I must confess that I think you have signal strength problems. i.e. the signal is not getting from the PLM to your bedroom KPLs and nor do the signals from your KPL are getting back to the PLM (and thus the blinking). Do you happen to have any SWL version 35s in your system? If so, this could explain the behavior somewhat.

 

I do recommend using INSTEON native functions (putting the KPL buttons in a scene) as much as possible.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[gadgetfreak]

I think you are right that there is some interference or communication issues. But I thought I would be OK with Insteon (especially after coming from x10). I have the two plug-in phase couplers and I thought each of the devices was supposed to be a repeater. With so many devices, I should have been covered. Note that I still have some unused residual x10 devices in my house. Could they be causing a problem?

 

Here are my devices as shown in the My Lighting section of the ISY:

 

2456S3 v.00 (2)

2456S3 v/38 (1)

2473 v.37 (1)

2476D v.27 (2)

2476S v.37 (1)

2486D v.36 (16 which represents 2 8-button KPLs)

2486DWH8 v.00 (8 which represents 1 8-button KPL)

2486DWH8 v.2D (16 which represents 2 8-button KPLs). These are the ones that are giving me the most problems.

2876D3 v.28 (4)

2876DB v.39 (9)

2876S v.28 (5)

2876SB v.39 (15)

B2457D2 v.3A (2)

 

As you can see, I have spent a lot of money converting from x10 to Insteon (including the ISY99). What else can I do to get more reliability? Thanks.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi gadgetfreak,

 

Thanks so very much for the detailed report.

 

I do understand your concerns ... so let's try and figure out what's causing all the noise.

 

If at all possible, the first thing I would want to do is to swap the locations of one of the non-responsive KPLs with one that works properly. If this causes the problem to remain isolated to the bedroom, then we know the problem is noise/signal strength/neutral wire.

 

If the problem stays with the non-responding KPL, then we know that the KPL is defective.

 

As far as old X10 devices, I have seen (only in some scenarios) that X10 repeaters may cause INSTEON signal issues. As such, you may want to disconnect, check, connect, check again to see their impact.

 

Now, as far as isolating noise/signal strength issue:

1. Make sure that the neutral wire is securely connected ... this is very important

2. Make sure that your Access Points are actually bridging the phases

3. Unplug the load from the problematic KPLs and see if they start responding. If they do, then we know there's something wrong with the load

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[gadgetfreak]

Ouch. It sounds like a complicated procedure but I will do the best I can to follow those procedures.

 

I believe I only have one boosterlinc 4827. Interestingly, it is plugged into my bedroom from the old days of x10. I will unplug it and see if it helps. You have any hope that it might?

 

The only other remnants from the x10 days are some 4-paddle switches and a phase coupler at the panel. Do you think that phase coupler (8 years old+) works for Insteon? Do I even need one with the plug in couplers? If so, which one? Also, you mentioned to make sure that it is actually coupled. I followed the instructions on the 2443P (2-pack) and it gave a confirmation of successful phase coupling. Did I miss something? Thanks again for everything.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi gadgetfreak,

 

I am not going to feign expertise in X10 but I can offer my experiences (and some theory):

- X10 Phase couplers do not let INSTEON traffic through

- X10 boosters do cause interference with INSTEON in some cases. The only way to know is if you unplug/test/plug back in/test again

 

I do not think you have missed anything in bridging the phases using the Access Points.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[gadgetfreak]

So do I need to remove the hardwired coupler at the panel? Is the 2-pack plug in sufficient? Should I install something different at the panel?

[oberkc]

Let me add a question/suggestion as well...

 

Where is your ISY/PLM plugged in? Is it on the same circuit as your computer system? Do you have power conditioners or UPS? If so, I suggest filtering all computer equipment and keep your PLM off the filter.

 

It amazed me how much computer equipment and peripheral devices can mess with insteon. I also sense that this is a common problem with many.

 

If you suspect this could be an issue with you, it may be pretty easy to confirm. Go grab yourself an extension cord. Plug the cord into a different ciruit in a different room. Unplug your PLM and plug it back into the extension cord. See if this solves your problem.

[gadgetfreak]

As I stated above, all of my computers, TV equipment (including UPS devices) are behind filters. The PLM is installed in the front (non filtered) outlet of the filter which is filtering the UPS for all my AV gear in the den. But thanks anyway for the suggestion. I appreciate you taking the time to try to help.

 

I have removed the boosterlinc in my bedroom (well my wife did while I was at work). I restored the modem (PLM) and things look better. I need to run some scene tests. Should a scene test always turn off the devices attached and also succeed EVERY time?

[Brian H]

Passive couplers may pass Insteon signals as they are 131.65 KHZ and X10 is 120 KHz. I used the Smarthome Dryer Plug one for a time with OK results.

 

I also have seen reports of some X10 repeaters seeing part of an Insteon signal and sending a bogus X10 signal on the power line. Now my JV Engineering XTB-IIR the blasts >10 Volts of X10 signal back on the line is Insteon aware and stays quiet. Smarthome had early BoosterLinc devices in a warning about removing then when you installed Insteon.

[gadgetfreak]

I just wanted to update everyone on this. I removed the boosterlinc from my bedroom and added in a lamplinc dual band (an extra one I had which I will eventually need for a lamp anyway) and almost ALL of my problems disappeared. So, for future troubleshooting, everyone should keep this in mind. However, one of my KPLs in my bedroom still flashed 5 times fast after every button push. Even though it seems to work perfectly responding and sending commands, the flashing still happens. Does anyone have an idea? Thx.

[Brian H]

Smarthome has said early firmware BoosterLincs and Insteon do not get along with each other. I have also seen reports of the later Insteon blessed ones causing trouble also.

 

Is it possible you have a bogus link in the KPL and it is trying to contact the link?

[gadgetfreak]

Doubtful because even the upper-left load works fine (responding and controlling) and is not part of any other links but it still flashes. I "could" reset the whole thing and reprogram but I was trying to avoid that.

[IndyMike]

Hello Gadgetfreak,

 

I could give you a long explanation on why Boosterlincs will intermittently talk over Insteon communications, but thought I would spare you the detail. Suffice it to say that all versions of the Bossterlinc have this problem to a certain degree. Note also that there are Smarthome versions of the X10 switches that incorporate "Boosterlinc technology". This can be disabled on the switch, but I have no data on how effective this is in eliminating data collision.

 

Please check to see if any of your X10 switches use the Boosterlinc function.

 

Since you were likely programming your Insteon devices with the Boosterlinc installed, it's possible that you have missing/corrupt links in the devices. Your "upper left load" kpl may have a corrupt link.

 

You could perform a "restore" on problem devices, or if you're curious:

 

1) Run a device link scan: /tools/diagnostics/device links table

2) Compare the device links with what the ISY think should be programmed: hit compare in the "device links table window" after it's populated.

3) restore any device that has missing/corrupt links.

 

If you find that you require a plug in X10 booster to restore your X10 communications, I would highly recommend Jeff Volp's XTBr. Jeff spent a good bit of time working to make sure that this device was Insteon compatible (had to revise the design significantly). It is the only plug in X10 booster that I know of that is compatible with Insteon.

 

I've had both prototypes and production units installed for over 8 months now with nary a problem. Prior to installation my X10 system was faltering due to signal absorption by the Insteon units. I still have many Leviton X10 switches that I'm not ready to give up on. The XTBr restored the functionality of these units without degrading my Insteon communications.

 

IM

[gadgetfreak]

I no longer use any x-10 devices (though there are some residual unused switches still installed. I will remove them and try restoring the KPL. Thx.