Starting over with a failed system

[gschoffstall]

Gentlemen, I had a reasonably reliable system until recently. The first issue was a power outage that caused my HUE equipment to not be seen by the EISY. Next, in trying to recover, I found an Insteon Appliance linc wasn't recognized. Well, from bad to worse, and I want to wipe the system and start rebuilding from scratch. My question: Is there a sure way to clean up the devices and start fresh? I have an older PLM, Insteon 2842-2 motion sensors, motion sensor II's, Remote linc 2440's, mini remote 2342-2, lamp linc's, and of course, the HUE bridge and lights. I am guessing I need to clear out any old links on the PLM and EISY, and factory reset all the components.  I've already tried restoring the PLM and EISY with no success. Thanks for suggestions.

[Techman]

It's possible, being that you have an older plm, that the system is OK but the PLM isn't. What is the 4 digit date code on your PLM?

Do you have a recent and viable eisy backup?

If you want to start fresh you need to factory reset each device, including the PLM, and the eisy.  This will remove the link tables from all of the above.

Before doing a factory reset you should try factory resetting just the PLM and then do a restore PLM. If you do a restore PLM then you should first disable the write to battery devices. You'll then have to restore each battery operated device, one at a time. 

[gschoffstall]

Techman, Here is the PLM backplate. Maybe you can make out the date code- 1222? I have already started factory resetting the battery devices. I have a variety of saved files, so I can try. I'll let you know. Thanks.

[Brian H]

V1.7 is an older PLM and it is possible it is failing. With the capacitor issues we have seen.

1222 could be week 22 of 2012.

[Techman]

@gschoffstall

The PLM was manufactured in 2012. You should probably replace it with a 2413U. The current PLMs have improved circuitry and updated firmware. 

The USB model would eliminate the need for a serial to USB converter cable.

[gschoffstall]

Guys, I have another PLM, and its' date code is 1123. Actually it looks newer than the current one. I have been alternating them, seeing as they just seem to go nuts on their own. After I factory reset and sitting on the shelf a while, they seem to work fine again....until they don't. Right now, I have a sensor and light module working and I am rebuilding. I'll keep plugging away at it. Thanks.

[Brian H]

The Revision Number on the PLM. Should be an indicator of its firmware and hardware.

[gschoffstall]

Guys, I have reconstructed some of my system, but I am stuck on getting 2 ApplianceLinc modules - #2456S3 to communicate. I tried the usual factory reset - holding the Set button while powering the module. Then relinking, both with removing existing links and finding and adding them. Same result - they're not talking. When I try to link on either problem module, the status light blinks 4 fast blinks before going to the normal slow link mode blink. I never noticed that before. When trying to link, I get the standard Cannot determine Insteon engine. Any ideas?

Edited September 13 by gschoffstall
correction of symptom

[gschoffstall]

Ok, continuing my epic journey, now another ApplianceLinc that HAD been working went the route of the other two - cannot determine Insteon engine. I'm thinking there's no hope and ready to abandon ship. I never had this issue with the ISY-994. Yes, other problems - but this may be the end of the story for UD. I see no other avenue except for a total rebuild, factory reseting everything. Failing that HomeAssistant may be worth a try. Suggestions? Comments? I'm wide open.

[Techman]

The (discontinued) ApplianceLinc is a powerline only device. Your issue is either caused by noise on the powerline or that your powerline is not properly bridged (see attached article)

Being that Insteon is a mesh network, the more dual band devices you have, the more reliable your system becomes.

Also take a look at this link:

Can't Determine INSTEON engine (youtube.com)

 

Insteon Mesh Network.pdf

[paulbates]

Another avenue is to use the linking menu to put iox into linking mode. Then press the set button on the appliancelinc until it beeps. Go to iox and finish the linking process.

If this affects multiple devices, you can put iox into linking mode and press set on multiple devices before completing linking in iox

[gschoffstall]

2 hours ago, Techman said:

The (discontinued) ApplianceLinc is a powerline only device.

According to the Insteon manual for the ApplianceLinc, it is a dual band device, using powerline and RF to communicate. I didn't mention before that I started with an X-10 system and do indeed have a powerline bridge for my two phases. With the Insteon modules replacing X-10 modules, I figured that issue was resolved, but alas.... 

I decided to start from scratch, factory resetting the PLM and EISY. I believe the (decidedly old) PLM did what it should and is now devoid of links. The EISY, however did not respond as expected. When the multifunction button was pressed 10x (starting when it was on), and held for some 20 seconds, it came back with a red light. Waiting the obligatory 10 minutes, it was still on  and red Pressing the button once restored the light to blue. When the console ran, it found the ISY still had a program. 

I only work with these things when they break, so not a lot of troubleshooting experience. SO when I follow directions and get conflicting results, it's beyond aggravating. What's up with it this time, please?

[oberkc]

In my mind, this is either a PLM failure, a device failure, or a communication failure.  Based upon everything you have tried so far it sounds as if we can discount the the probability that it is the first two. Considering the possibility that it is a communication problem, have you tried temporarily moving the Appliance link to a different location, closer to the PLM, to see if communication improves. Additionally, do you recall of any recent changes to your household electric appliances any new devices Recently Added?

[Brian H]

No the 2456S3 ApplianceLinc is not dual band. It is the original Insteon relay module and is power line only. Is in the larger case like a PLM and has a pass through outlet on the front. If it is a 2856S3 it would be a Icon version of the original AppliancLinc.

The 2635-222 On Off Insteon Module is dual band.

The model number is on the back of the module.

full 2635-222 manual too big to post here but can be found in the support section of Insteon.com

2456s3_newer.pdf

2635-222qs-en.pdf

Edited Saturday at 10:56 AM by Brian H
add files

[Techman]

@gschoffstall

You need to focus on communications between the devices and your PLM. If other Insteon devices are working then the problem is not a failed PLM. You mentioned that you have been switching beetween PLMs. If so did you follow the "Replace PLM" procedure?

How many dual band devices do you have in your network. Have you verified that the powerline is bridged using the 4 tap test? (see attached file)

 

4 Tap test.pdf

[gschoffstall]

All good information, of course. I am still confused about the 2456S3, which all of my on/off modules are, not being dual band. The pdf file sent by Brian says the module uses the A.C. line and RF communication. Is this not Dual Band?

I have never heard of the 4 tap test, and I never heard of an Insteon range extender. So I do not have one. What I do have is a phase coupler sold to bridge X10 signals on my split phase system. My home is a small 850 sq ft ranch with a basement. I don't have any new devices with chokes to kill the X10 powerline signals. 

In my efforts, I deleted devices and programs that were ineffective, left those that functioned. I saw no correlation with phase or distance from the PLM. I did encounter warnings to remove links from those removed devices. Exactly how does one accomplish that. I never saw anything mentioned about the how to, just the warning. Other than a factory reset (holding the set button while powering on the PLM) was the only sure way I knew to clear out the PLM links. I never saw an official procedure for replacing a PLM. Is there a way to do it piecemeal? And how about the EISY? It took 3 tries just to reset it (the press the multifunction button 10x). 

The devices I have are: 3 Appliance Linc 2456S3, 4 Lamplinc 2844-222 (which are not in service), 1  2457 D2, 1  2634-222 outdoor , 2 2842-2 motion detectors, 1 2844-222 motion detector. 

Most of this stuff has been around a while, and once set up, has worked reliably. Until now. I can honestly say i never had trouble like this until I upgraded to the EISY.

[Brian H]

The 2456S3 is power line only.

The manuals description of how Insteon works does show Insteon can also be RF and maybe what is confusing you. As Dual Band does use both the AC power line and RF.

If the module is Dual Band or RF only. It would have an FCC Database ID on its label and in the specification sheet in the manual. It will show the RF frequency and AC power requirements.

Manuals are sometimes confusing from what I have seen and read. Some of the Developers notes they gave us had errors in them.

Edited Tuesday at 10:39 AM by Brian H

[paulbates]

Did you try my suggestion of linking a few devices with the linking menu?

[gschoffstall]

1 hour ago, paulbates said:

Did you try my suggestion of linking a few devices with the linking menu?

Yes, Paul, I did. But in my flailing about, I can't remember exactly what happened. To the best of my knowledge, I seem to remember the results being that the device I was trying to link ignored me. I want to test each module and make sure it works where I need it to. It might be an advantage to use a range extender, but there wasn't any need for one before. I don't see any new ones for sale, and I don't want to buy a used one and end up with more trouble.  But then I've been at this for over two weeks intermittently and I am afraid I need to get serious and zero everything out to start fresh. 

I could use some suggestions to that end. I've seen suggestions to put things in "Test mode", Use a range extender (which I do not have), remove links (for which there are no clear instructions). Simply: How can I make sure ALL the links are disabled/ deleted to start clean? 

[paulbates]

You don't have a ton of devices so starting over is do-able. Give this a read first and use it as a guide

I'd print out yourf programs you have for a reference.

1. One at a time, delete each device from the ISY, making a list of them as you go so none are forgotten. WRITE DOWN THE INSTEON ADDRESS FOR EACH BEFORE YOU DELETE - 11.22.33 format
2. Reset the PLM
   1. Pick delete Modem (PLM) from the File menu and complete prompts
   2. Reset the PLM - Un plug, wait 5 seconds, replug while holding the set button until it beeps
   3. Unplug the PLM wait 5 seconds and plug in
   4. Unplug and replug the eisy, log back in to iox
   5. Go to Tools/Diagnostics/PLM info status, look for it to say connected
      1. Repeat 3 and 4 above again, even a few times, until it says connected
   6. Do not try to add the PLM as a device to your eisy, iox does that on its own
3. One at a time add non-battery devices
   1. Go to each non-battery device, unplug, replug while holding the set button
   2. For switches, pull out the air gap, wait 5 seconds, then press in and hold
   3. In both of the above cases, Wait for the beep 
   4. Pick New Insteon Device from the linking menu
      1. be sure to pick "remove all existing links"
4. One at a time add battery devices
   1. Go to each battery device, press and hold the set button until it beeps
   2. In both of the above cases, Wait for the beep 
   3. Pick Link a sensor from the linking menu
      1. be sure to pick "remove all existing links"

If you get stuck on one, move on to the next.

Test everything out. 

You will have to update programs

Edited Tuesday at 02:43 PM by paulbates

[gschoffstall]

Thanks for that. I don't have any programs at this point that I trust. None of them were very complicated anyway- sensor > light> time> on/off. You get the point. I do have some old X10 hardware- Powerhouse remote controllers HR12A, which I really like for manual control. I won't get on a soap box about the Insteon remotes, but I have nothing good to say about them. Thanks again for clear instructions. I'll let you know either way.

[Brian H]

I also have X10 addresses in my Insteon Modules and an HR12A. I also do not like the Insteon remotes.

The Range Extenders I have looked at are a 2457D2 Dual Band Lamplinc with the dimmer circuit removed. They even kept the same FCC Database number on them. Four tap test also works fine. Testing to other modules.

Like me and others. I have a 2457D2 or other Dual Band module being used as a Range Extender. Since it is only being used for range extending. It is not even in the ISY994i setup.

[gschoffstall]

Ok, so far so good. All devices removed from the program. All devices factory reset, including the PLM. EISY power cycled. Baby steps, I only want to do this once. The finder got me to the Admin console, and here's the picture. Look right?

[paulbates]

Yes, but you want to be sure it shows your PLM connected on the diagnostics screen

[oberkc]

21 hours ago, gschoffstall said:

I want to test each module and make sure it works where I need it to.

That makes sense, however, if they do not work at the intended location, but DO work if moved closer to the PLM or another location, that can be a clue about the underlying cause (it tends to suggest that the device works, but that there is something causing communication problems).