Long Running Randomness

[Guy Lavoie]

I also have keypadlincs and I like the button to reflect the status of the last scene command, wherever it originates from. This is especially true of keypadlinc buttons that are set up in toggle mode. So what I did was install a plugin called "Virtual" with which you can create virtual switches. It's a free plugin. Then I added a virtual switch to the scene as a responder, so that it get's turned on or off with the scene, no matter who/what turns the scene on or off. After that I added a program which monitors the status of that virtual switch, and sends the appropriate on or off command to the keypadlinc button. That keeps it in sync perfectly.

If you have a light that is only ever turned on as part of a scene, then you can monitor the status of that individual light instead, and skip the virtual switch.

Edited Wednesday at 09:50 PM by Guy Lavoie

[IndyMike]

1 hour ago, CoolToys said:

@Guy Lavoie There are several scenes that don't sync, this morning it was the temperature scene but the one in question is a  4 set up with.

2476D Switchlinc Dimmer W Beeper 4.0 - The live load
KeypadLinc Dimmer 5 Button V.43 Button 2
KeypadLinc Dimmer 5 Button V.45 Button 2

When the scene for all of these turns off, the 2476D turns off the other two remain "on"  If I press any of the three buttons, they work as they should.  Scene command from Insteon ok, ISY not so ok.  I am guessing due to the lack of verification by ISY?

@CoolToys, sorry to hear you still have some gremlins running around.  Your failed scene is rather curious.  

1. The 2476D dimmer is likely powerline only.  Surprising that it's the one that responded.
2. The KPL's (V.43 and V.45) are dual band.  Would have expected those to have responded.

The difference between the 2476D that responded, and the KPL's that didn't, is the path that your scene command took from the PLM to the devices.  

1. The path to the 2476d is from your PLM, to the panel, and then to the 2476D circuit.
2. The path from to the KPL's is complicated since it uses RF.  It should be better due to the dual band capability.  Unfortunately, this isn't perfect.  I've seen dual band devices Ignore RF communication due to a low level (below noise level) insteon signal on the powerline.  

My advice would be to investigate the circuit the KPL's are on for signal absorbers/noise.

Beyond that, you can use the "scene test" to determine whether "verification" would help here.  The scene test uses the Insteon standard method of activating a scene/interrogating the responders.  The PLM will poll each device to determine if it responded correctly.  If it does not, it will re-try up to 5x.

In my experience, the "scene test" shows failures that do not exist with standard ISY scenes.

Beyond that, we may need to understand your "house" configuration (plm placement, home sq footage, #' panels, number of devices, other "problem devices") to go forward.

 

[CoolToys]

@Guy Lavoie I'll try that but I don't understand if the scene doesn't change the switch, how does the virtual switch work?  To solve the three way issue I used the "scenes" as outlined in the ISY cookbook, and they work 99% of the time.  I also extended that thought process and where I needed dual band keypads I used those keypads to show me lots of things like active motion zones.  If I am in the recording studio and someone walks in the front door a keypad lights up.  as they come up the stairs the next key lights etc.  If they go the wrong way, I know to go get them.    How did you set up the Virtual key program to monitor?  Endless query loop?

Edited Wednesday at 10:04 PM by CoolToys
person responded too.

[CoolToys]

@IndyMike That's the interesting thing isn't it.  Oddly it was the reverse happening when I had the keypadlinc as responders only to the scene command.  I made all three controller/responders and it reversed.  

The house has three panels, A main that connects the old section, a sub panel for the outdoor kitchen, greenhouse (was a spa) etc outside, and a sub panel for the addition where the recording studio, guest room and editing room are.  Logically the PLM is about as far from the main panel as possible, as are the three devices listed.  I did add an i/o link on the wall from the old section, about 30 feet from the PLM to the new section because the new section wasn't working well at all.  That solved the issue.  It is a two story house so runs are not really that long in the old section.  The PLM is located on the second floor in the screening room rack.  I have considered moving it to the Living AV rack which is 3 feet from the panel, but there are no free outlets.  The location has a lamplinc with the top controlled outlet running a lamp, and the bottom connected to the RackMaxx power filter in the AV rack.

I put an 2456.S3 appliance link in the bedroom along with the keypadlinc's hoping that would solve what I agree to be a power line comm problem.  X-10 will not work at that outlet at all.  The keypadlincs turn the scene on and off perfectly, but the reverse isn't true.  It is odd the switch works though and the Eisy see the switch position changes quite accurately.  By the same note the keypadlinc status changes are also received by the Eisy correctly.  The only issue is when the scene is set by the Eisy the keypadlinc's do not follow.  

I am going to find a noise filter/surge suppressor outlet and plug that in, maybe forcing the keypadlinc to RF only. and see what that does.

I might also try a 2477D in the same spot as the 2476D

[Guy Lavoie]

4 hours ago, CoolToys said:

@Guy Lavoie I'll try that but I don't understand if the scene doesn't change the switch, how does the virtual switch work?  To solve the three way issue I used the "scenes" as outlined in the ISY cookbook, and they work 99% of the time.  I also extended that thought process and where I needed dual band keypads I used those keypads to show me lots of things like active motion zones.  If I am in the recording studio and someone walks in the front door a keypad lights up.  as they come up the stairs the next key lights etc.  If they go the wrong way, I know to go get them.    How did you set up the Virtual key program to monitor?  Endless query loop?

The utility of the virtual switch is that it can serve as a flag for following the status of a scene. If all the lights in your scene are lights that can also be controlled individually, then you can't know for sure if any given light was turned on by itself or as part of a scene. If you want to keep track of if a scene was activated, the idea is to add a virtual switch as an additional responder to the scene. The virtual switch doesn't have a physical control, so the only way it can get turned on or off is with a scene command. So let's say that the eisy turns on the scene, and you'd like to update the backlight for that scene on your keypadlinc: First you create a new scene with one of the switches that can control the scene as a controller, and add the keypadlinc button as a responder. You might already have this if you have switches other than the keypadlinc that can turn the scene on or off. You might need to create a new, separate scene if it has the keypadlinc button as a controller, because you can't have the same button both as a controller and a responder in the same scene. I name these as "reverse" scenes. Now you create a new program that looks for the status of that virtual switch turning on or off, and have the program turn that new scene on or off, for the purpose of updating the button.

[IndyMike]

@CoolToys, It sounds like you have a lot of equipment that would be capable of absorbing/interfering with Insteon signals.  

My 1st suggestion would be to relocate the PLM as close as physically possible to the main panel.  The panel is the Nexus of your electrical system and is (normally) the most stable/quite point.  Even a temporary install can be extremely instructive. 

Edit: In addition to the PLM at the main panel -make sure you couple the phases at the panel...  Place a dual band device (LL, APL, or range extender) on the opposite phase nearby the PLM.  

I would also be leery of installing the PLM on the same circuit as your A/V rack.  Audio equipment incorporates very good powerline input filters.  Unfortunately, many manufactures don't isolate the filters from the input - and they absorb powerline communication as a result.  In other words, you may need filterlinc's (or something similar) to isolate your A/V equipment from the powerline.   

Edited Thursday at 01:47 PM by IndyMike

[CoolToys]

@IndyMike Geez, I had forgotten about filterlinc's I used them in my last house, two ordered, one for each AV rack and I also ordered a 2477 to replace the 2476 in our bedroom and see if that helps.  Like many of the people with issues on Tesla Power Walls, I filter the inbound power.  My solar edge inverter induced its own noise problems so I added a Leviton 42120.

I do have dual mesh switched on each phase in "steps" throughout the house.  When we did the remodel the sheathing and roof are techshield which is great at blocking/reflecting RF and used RockWool insulation in a lot of the walls and attic which is also a terrific audio and RF absorbent material.  The house is divided into four zones with each zone stepping off of the previous.  

As I am re-mapping that out I see that there is a small potential gap leading to our bedroom. The "hop" in the middle from the next closest dual mesh is another 2476 although directly below the keypad linc in the bedroom is another dual mesh 5 button so that hop shouldn't be the issue.  Isn't powerline fun.....

[IndyMike]

20 hours ago, CoolToys said:

@IndyMike Geez, I had forgotten about filterlinc's I used them in my last house, two ordered, one for each AV rack and I also ordered a 2477 to replace the 2476 in our bedroom and see if that helps.  Like many of the people with issues on Tesla Power Walls, I filter the inbound power.  My solar edge inverter induced its own noise problems so I added a Leviton 42120.
 

@CoolToys, are you saying that you have a Tesla Powerwall and an Inverter?

If that is the case, take my suggestion of moving the PLM to the main panel with a grain of salt...

As shown in the other threads, the Powerwall generates noise that appears to be close to the Insteon frequency.  It MAY also generate noise near the 60Hz zero crossing - that's a double whammy.

Given that the Powerwall is likely tied into your main panel (or sub), you want to put some distance between the Powerwall and the PLM.  Line length = Inductance = noise attenuation. 

 

[CoolToys]

@IndyMike, no powerwalls, just the solaredge inverters which are set up for powerwalls.  My wallet isn't that fat yet.  In the Powerwall thread I suggested someone try the Leviton 42120.  I have been using the 42120 since X-10 days to clean up the inbound powerline signal and block any spurious noise from the main line, neighbors etc.