ISY994 compatibility with newer 700 and 800 series

[jeffreycowart]

Currently using an ISY994 with the 500 series z wave board.  Everything works great and its has been super reliable.  Rarely ever get an unresponsive device or missed event.  Everything is on the latest available version for that device.  Currently only have z wave devices (no Insteon).  Home consists of probably 40-50 devices mainly Homeseer HS-200 switches and dimmers.  Also have some GE outlets.  The vast majority are z-wave Plus devices, but there are a few that are not (probably 2-3 at most).

I recently tried to add some new devices:

Zooz Zen52 which are z wave 700 LR (on latest firmware).  Those connected fine, but after connecting the reliability was only about 50% of the time.  They would work turning on, but a few seconds later would fail to connect when turning off.  Causing the ISY to remain "Busy" while trying to reestablish communication.  I put in two of those approx 10" apart.  They are within 5-10 feet of Homeseer switches and dimmers.  I synchronized, repaired links, updated neighbors and also just gave it time to try to correct itself on its own.  Looking under zwave details they both had routes from the ISY and listed the 30-40 other devices as neighbors.  BUT it was still a 50/50 shot if they would work when needed.  Originally tried including close to ISY.  Per Zooz support I tried excluding (had to move back very close to ISY), then readded them in their final location.  Took about 20 tries to get them to add in the final location.  Made no difference in reliability.

So I pulled those out and replaced with Shelly Wave PM2 devices, which are z wave 800.  Almost the same exact behavior, except I would say the probability is 80/20 with these devices.  I excluded and added them very close to the ISY, then moved to final location.

Are others seeing this behavior with newer devices?  Is our only course of action to either find 500 series devices or upgrade to Eisy?

Or am I doing something else wrong?

I attached the ALL Node details for the Shelly Wave PM 2, if anybody sees a blaring issue.

Shelly Wave PM2 Node Details

[lilyoyo1]

700/800 series are backwards compatible so they should work but you would not get the benefits of those 2 series. Everything would operate as 500 series devices. 

Keep in mind that if any of your neighbors along the path to those devices are not 500 series, you'll be using 300 series capabilities when trying to communicate with them. I would bring the devices close to the isy. Exclude and re-add, then take to their final location. Once done. Run a Heal. While you may still have issues, the self healing properties of zwave will hopefully improve performance over time. 

[jeffreycowart]

Thanks for your reply lilyoyo1.  I have been trying the same things you suggested... And read over the zwave tips and tricks posts.

They claim to be backwards compatible but 50-80% reliability for on/off commands is not compatibility.  I am not concerned with having the 700/800 benefits.

I tried both close by ISY exclude/include and close by exclude / final location include. (The devices would not exclude from final locations, had to be close to ISY to exclude).  After doing this I synchronized, Repaired links, and updated neighbors and left alone for several days.  Behavior is always the same with 50-80% reliability command will go through.

With the heal option gone, my understanding is that you do have to give it several days to self heal.  Do I need to give it more than several days? I would typically wait 3-5 days between making changes. 

These are Zooz and Shelly devices, so probably considered in the low cost category.  Guess I was just trying to confirm if all 700/800 devices will behave this way with the older ISY994 now that there are no more updates, or if it was these cheaper devices have lower quality implementation...

If others are seeing rock solid communication out of 700/800 series devices with ISY994, I will keep trying.  If not, I will try to source some older Aeotec relays that are 500 series.

[Techman]

@jeffreycowart

The 500 series board in the ISY has a limited range, about 20' or less. Have you tried adding a repeater close to the ISY?

[jeffreycowart]

Techman thanks for asking that question. 

I don't have a dedicated device like an Aeotec Range extender that I have heard many people mention, but looking at the node details (attached in my first post), I have 30+ devices listed as repeaters. These are all permanent wired devices like Homeseer switches and GE outlets. 

Many of those devices are within 10 ft of the ISY. 

The newly tried 700/800 series devices are located in the middle of my environment. All the other switches and outlets communicate 100%, it only these newly introduced 700/800 series devices that don't keep a solid connection. 

Do my repeaters act differently than something like the Aeotec Range extender 7?

I have searched and seen other posts with people running into communication issues with newer series devices. If they aren't fully compatible I won't waste my (or the nice forum members) time trying. 

I do plan to upgrade to eisy at some point, so wanted to buy newer stuff as I add, but if it won't work I look for alternatives until I'm ready to pull upgrade trigger. 

 

Thanks all!

[Techman]

All my Zwave devices are either Aeotec or Zooz. Lately I've been going with Zooz as their devices support Zwave 800LR.  I'm using the eisy with the 700 series Zmatter board and the Zooz ZAC38 repeater.  My system has been 100% reliable. 

The ISY994 Zwave's antenna is in the enclosure which limits it range.  If most of your Zwave devices are located in a wall then their range is somewhat compromised. Not sure why your 700/800 devices are having issues as they have an improved range over the 500 series. 

I'm not sure if the older 500 series board was Zwave certified which could be an issue with newer devices.

[jeffreycowart]

Thanks Techman. 

I see you are using a range extender. Do you have a lot of z wave devices?  Or are your devices located further from your Eisy?

Or do stand alone repeater just work better than switches acting as repeaters?

I thought those were for situations where there wasn't a robust mesh network. 

[Techman]

Being that Zwave is a RF only protocol, the location of the antennas is important in ensuring good RF communication. Devices that are embedded in a wall will have a reduced range, especially if they're mounted in metal electricial boxes.

An externally mounted repeater, plugged into a wall outlet, especially one higher up, will improve RF communications.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, jeffreycowart said:

Thanks for your reply lilyoyo1.  I have been trying the same things you suggested... And read over the zwave tips and tricks posts.

They claim to be backwards compatible but 50-80% reliability for on/off commands is not compatibility.  I am not concerned with having the 700/800 benefits.

I tried both close by ISY exclude/include and close by exclude / final location include. (The devices would not exclude from final locations, had to be close to ISY to exclude).  After doing this I synchronized, Repaired links, and updated neighbors and left alone for several days.  Behavior is always the same with 50-80% reliability command will go through.

With the heal option gone, my understanding is that you do have to give it several days to self heal.  Do I need to give it more than several days? I would typically wait 3-5 days between making changes. 

These are Zooz and Shelly devices, so probably considered in the low cost category.  Guess I was just trying to confirm if all 700/800 devices will behave this way with the older ISY994 now that there are no more updates, or if it was these cheaper devices have lower quality implementation...

If others are seeing rock solid communication out of 700/800 series devices with ISY994, I will keep trying.  If not, I will try to source some older Aeotec relays that are 500 series.

It's compatible which is why you're able to add and operate both devices albeit unreliably. I would say this behavior is indicative of your network or local environment. Unfortunately zwave has always been a poor automation protocol and finicky which is why I e never jumped fully on board except for a few specific use cases. 

The reason why I brought up 700/800 benefits is due to the longer range and requirement the all devices support nwi/nwe which would've allowed you to exclude/include from your final location. The much longer range would've helped as well. 

I've never used Shelly and I know a few people who has tried zooz 800. They weren't happy with zooz but since I didn't troubleshoot their issues, I can't speak on it. I've always been in the "you get what you paid for" boat so Shelly never interested me. 

Have you tried to factory reset the devices vs exclude only? Is your isy on the latest firmware in addition to both firmware AND UI matching?

In regards to your question about the range extender vs regular repeaters, there is a difference. Both accomplish the same thing but the range extender has the additional benefit of amplifying the  signal. 

[Techman]

@jeffreycowart

Take a look at this:

Zooz 800 Series Z-Wave Plus Range Extender ZAC38 - The Smartest House

[KeviNH]

Without having seen your post, I happened to order a Zac38 from their Black Friday sale.

So there's no advantages (e.g. range improvement) from adding an 800 Series range extender to eISY instead of an older 500 series extender?

On 11/12/2024 at 3:57 PM, jeffreycowart said:

I see you are using a range extender. Do you have a lot of z wave devices?  Or are your devices located further from your Eisy?

Or do stand alone repeater just work better than switches acting as repeaters?

I thought those were for situations where there wasn't a robust mesh network. 

Standalone repeaters, in my experience, work about as well as a plug-in multi-sensor (e.g. Aeotec), but better than an in-wall light switch -- I think this is mostly because my grounded steel junction boxes attenuate the signal from the in-wall device.