sudden and severe communication problems

[someguy]

I have had a relatively sudden onset of relatively severe Insteon communication problems.

 

The Symptoms:

 

Most of the time, when I open my Admin Console, I have at least 10 if not 20 of these popups:

 

I have devices that have exclamation points (because of the above) by them and sometimes they will queery and sometimes they won't. I have scenes that won't work.

 

I DO notice that things that happen outside of the ISY, like Motion sensors that are linked directly to switches and scenes that are programed in switches work fine.

 

 

This makes me conclude that it could be my PLM.

 

 

Things I've tried:

 

No, I haven't made any major changes or bought any new things lately.

 

I do have a fair amount of CFL's and some CCFL's. I've tried unscrewing groups of them and it hasn't worked. If these were the problem, would I expect to see worse problems with the units that these bulbs are connected to?

 

I tried moving my AP's. I had one on my PLM and moved it.

 

Can anyone provide any help? I have read the recent posts on this and am not finding much that helps as of yet.

 

Is there an "Insteon Noisometer"? I'd be willing to pay a significant chunk of change for one that might help my sniff out the cause of my headaches.

 

 

(an unimportant aside:

 

just a few weeks ago, my communication problems were so rare and I was so happy with my system that when they had the Insteon sale at smarthome over the last weekend, I spend over $900 on more units to expand my insteon system. I'd really like to get this problem fixed so that I can put this new stuff to work.)

 

thanks for any help,

 

someguy

[someguy]

I'm thinking of just switching out my PLM, unless anyone thinks this is the wrong answer.

 

Is this the correct one for my ISY-99i?

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2413S/PowerLin ... and/p.aspx

 

thanks,

 

someguy

[Brian H]

Don't have thoughts on the PLM being the problem.

 

You have device directly linked to each other that was not done through the ISY99i?

 

The link for the 2413S Dual Band is the correct one but if your old one is a 2412S PLM. Add the optional wall wart power supply near the bottom of the page.

http://www.smarthome.com/1223PS/Univers ... ply/p.aspx

 

The ISY99i gets its power from the 2412S but the 2413S does not supply power to the ISY99i. You need an external supply to mate with the DC power jack on the back of the ISY99i case.

 

Smarthome also has a 2412S Refurbished listed on their site, but I don't know how most would feel about a Referb.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello someguy,

 

The first thing I would like to do is to do a query on any one of the devices for which you have comm problems. If that does work reliably, then it seems that there's something ON during the 3:00 AM query which is causing all other comm problems. If query does not work, then please try:

1. Unplug your PLM for a minute then plug it back in and retry query

2. If 1 does not work, move your PLM/ISY to some other outlet and retry

3. If 2 does not work, then Factory reset your PLM and retry the query

4. If 3 works, then follow up with File | Restore Modem (PLM)

5. If 3 does not work, then we can conclude with 85% level of certainty that it's the PLM

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[someguy]

Michel:

 

I went through your steps and on step 4, I did the "restore PLM". When I did this, a diaglog box came up that indicated that it was resetting my PLM. Then the Admin Console was non-responsive for a while.

 

When it came back up, It continued to have communication problems and various units that it had communication problems with exclamation marks and "Device Communications Error" popups. It later had a popup that said "restore PLM Failed".

 

Should I just pull the trigger on the new PLM?

 

Is the one that I have listed above the best one to get (the dual band, serial one)?

 

thanks,

 

someguy

[Brian H]

The 2413S Dual Band PLM is the only new one available right now.

The new 2412S ones are BO until 07/30/10

The 2412SR refurbished are in stock.

http://www.smarthome.com/2412SR/PowerLi ... hed/p.aspx

 

I replaced a 2412S PLM with my 2413S Dual Band PLM and am happy with it.

The database memory is faster in the 2413S Dual PLM and my Queries seem to run faster but that is a general observation.

The 2431S has a smaller Link Database but for most it isn't an issue.

 

Don't forget a power supply if you get a 2413S and you old one is a 2412S.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello someguy,

 

Based on what you are describing, I do NOT think the problem is the PLM but communications errors.

 

1. Do you have comm errors with ALL your devices or only a certain few?

2. If with ALL, then - and if you have a plugin module, plug it directly on top of the PLM and do a query. If this works, then the problem is noise related

3. Have you tried moving the PLM to a different location?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[someguy]

Hello someguy,

 

Based on what you are describing, I do NOT think the problem is the PLM but communications errors.

 

1. Do you have comm errors with ALL your devices or only a certain few?

2. If with ALL, then - and if you have a plugin module, plug it directly on top of the PLM and do a query. If this works, then the problem is noise related

3. Have you tried moving the PLM to a different location?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Michel:

 

It looks like you were right (so far). I tried moving the PLM to another location and now my ISY isn't having any communication problems (so far).

 

I had already ordered the new dual band PLM and ISY power supply (my old one had no power supply.

 

Would you advise going ahead and switching out to the new one? Have you seen less problems with the new model?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello someguy,

 

I am glad to hear it. Now, we have to go to the next step: what was causing all communications problems in the original location? You see, if you do not address the root cause, you may have the same issue in the new location in the near future.

 

If your PLM is v83 and above, I do not think a dual band PLM is going to be any better. The only advantage of a dual band PLM is that you can possibly get rid of one of your access points.

 

If your PLM is older, then, YES. 2413S will perform much better as long as you do not already have more than 1000 links in your PLM.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[someguy]

Hello someguy,

 

I am glad to hear it. Now, we have to go to the next step: what was causing all communications problems in the original location? You see, if you do not address the root cause, you may have the same issue in the new location in the near future.

 

If your PLM is v83 and above, I do not think a dual band PLM is going to be any better. The only advantage of a dual band PLM is that you can possibly get rid of one of your access points.

 

If your PLM is older, then, YES. 2413S will perform much better as long as you do not already have more than 1000 links in your PLM.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

My old PLM is v72, according to my ISY, so I think I'll go ahead and swap it out.

 

Why the 1000 links limit? do the new ones have less memory?

 

I have 206 links, so it shouldn't be a concern, but I'm curious.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi someguy,

 

The new PLM have a max of 1024 links supported.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[someguy]

Hello someguy,

 

I am glad to hear it. Now, we have to go to the next step: what was causing all communications problems in the original location? You see, if you do not address the root cause, you may have the same issue in the new location in the near future.

 

If your PLM is v83 and above, I do not think a dual band PLM is going to be any better. The only advantage of a dual band PLM is that you can possibly get rid of one of your access points.

 

If your PLM is older, then, YES. 2413S will perform much better as long as you do not already have more than 1000 links in your PLM.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Michel:

 

Is there a recommendable way to find out who is causing my noise at the old location? The same circuit has (and always had, even prior to this problem) power suppliers for my modem, my router and an amplifier for my cable signal. The problem with these things is that I can't unplug them and test the ISY, because most of them are necessary to have the ISY work. Is there an insteon "noisometer" that I can get somewhere?

 

Also: for the limit of 1024 links, what is the definition of a "link"?

 

thanks,

 

someguy

[Brian H]

There is no Insteon Noise Meter that I know of.

 

I have used an XTBM X10 noise meter for rough tests. As X10 is 120 KHz power line frequency and Insteon is 131.65 KHz.

 

Your problem may not be all noise. Some power supplies absorb signals on the power line. Many of us call them Signal Suckers.

 

You maybe able to use a FilterLinc and plug your possible problem makers into it individually. Then test for improvements.

[oberkc]

I am with you on the need for a noisometer. If you have not found the ISY scene test tool, check it out. I found it to be a useful tool to identify weak communications and to compare communication robustness as your house electronics change.

 

In addition to putting filterlincs on suspected problem devices, I found it to be avaluable tool to make sure your PLM and computer equipment are on separate circuits. If you are not this way already, find an extension cord and plug it into a plug on another circuit. Plug your PLM into the extension cord. See if performance improves. If so, there are a couple of options to consider.

 

It is also my understanding that power supplies get noiser as they age. The fact that you have always had them may not be conclusive. I also consider it good practice to filter your computer system. There is so much electronic stuff going on there. Doing so in my house was a huge benefit.

[Brian H]

Good Points oberkc.

 

I have my APC BX1000 UPS that is on my computer system. On a FilterLinc.

The AC line filter in most UPS units absorb Insteon and X10 signals as noise. Filtered surge strips are also know problem makers.

 

I also use the Scene Test in ISY to find things.

[someguy]

I put my TV and stereo system's surge supressor on a filterlinc and it blew out the filterlinc, so I'm a little wary about putting too many things on a filterlinc.

[Brian H]

Well if you know someone handy with electronics.

The FilterLinc has a soldered in time delay fuse on it circuit board.

 

Was it the 5 or 10 amp one?

I wounder if the surge strip clamped a power line surge and the short current spike blew the FilterLincs fuse.

[someguy]

I'd like to close this thread by saying that I swapped out my PLM for a new dual band (and had to add a power supply to the ISY) and my network is solid again. I still have a once a week "cannot communicate with xxx", but it is much better.

 

Any idea why the ISY would say that it can't communicate with one of my 2420's? It has said that a few times and the way I understand it, it should NOT be able to communicate with them and should be smart enough to know that and not "complain" about it (joke).

[oberkc]

Any idea why the ISY would say that it can't communicate with one of my 2420's?

 

I still have my money on powerline communication issues, which has been overcome by the RF capability of the new dual-band PLM. I still recommend a filterlinc on your computer equipment or whatever else is on the same curcuit as the PLM. Some have more power capability than others, but I have had none fail. I suspect you are going to experience intermittent problems until you solve this issue.

[Sub-Routine]

Hi someguy,

 

I'm glad to read most of your problems were solved with a new PLM.

 

Some of the Motion Sensors send a NAK (NotAcKnowledged) occasionally for some reason we have yet to figure out.

 

Rand

 

I'd like to close this thread by saying that I swapped out my PLM for a new dual band (and had to add a power supply to the ISY) and my network is solid again. I still have a once a week "cannot communicate with xxx", but it is much better.

 

Any idea why the ISY would say that it can't communicate with one of my 2420's? It has said that a few times and the way I understand it, it should NOT be able to communicate with them and should be smart enough to know that and not "complain" about it (joke).

[backinthelab]

Hi all, it's been awhile since I've been on the forums to keep up with all things UD, but a recent issue has brought me back. I wish it was better news!

 

Anyways, not intending to hijack this thread, but I felt that it was closely related to the problems I'm having. Everything was running great....until now.

 

I recently had a power outage and when things came back up I noticed that the keypad in my family room started to blink when I pressed the "B" button. I went into the console, and immediately was greeted with the "Cannot communicate" prompt for every device. There's a red exclamation mark next to all of my keypads and the ISY will fail to write/update to them.

 

The odd thing is that my time-managed scenes work fine and the switches still respond to commands from the console. I removed a few devices in hopes that I could relink them, however, I can't add them back. Luckily, I only did a few as a test but this is still quite disheartening. I'm lost at this point so any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

A bit more info:

ISY Firmware 2.7.15

PLM v85

Small network of devices (less than 30)

Tried resets on the ISY and PLM, to no avail.

Tried removing, relinking, running diagnostics as well.

 

Thanks in advance for any help!!!

[LeeG]

It is not uncommon for KPLs to come up dark (no LEDs) after a power cycle like that but normally they do not lose links. A blinking LED button indicates that one or more responders linked to that button did not respond with an ACK to the command the KPL sent as a result of the button press.

 

Start by pulling the air gap switch on a single KPL for about 60 seconds. Then push it back in being careful not to push the air gap lower than the face place as that will factory reset the KPL.

 

Now can the ISY communicate with that KPL.

 

The fact that the ISY cannot communicate with the KPLs and the KPLs cannot communicate with one or more of its responder devices sounds like a communication problem.

 

Are the LEDs on all the Access Points On.

 

Can the ISY/PLM get the status of all the other devices. That is, is this isolated to KPLs.

 

Sort of have to eliminate possibilities as there are many at this point.

[backinthelab]

It is not uncommon for KPLs to come up dark (no LEDs) after a power cycle like that but normally they do not lose links. A blinking LED button indicates that one or more responders linked to that button did not respond with an ACK to the command the KPL sent as a result of the button press.

 

Start by pulling the air gap switch on a single KPL for about 60 seconds. Then push it back in being careful not to push the air gap lower than the face place as that will factory reset the KPL.

 

Now can the ISY communicate with that KPL.

 

The fact that the ISY cannot communicate with the KPLs and the KPLs cannot communicate with one or more of its responder devices sounds like a communication problem.

 

Are the LEDs on all the Access Points On.

 

Can the ISY/PLM get the status of all the other devices. That is, is this isolated to KPLs.

 

Sort of have to eliminate possibilities as there are many at this point.

 

To answer your questions:

 

It was the entire KPL that started blinking, not just one LED.

LED's are on for all access points

Only one KPL exists in my network, the rest are dimmer or on/off switchlincs

The ISY can get the status of all devices, including the KPL. (That was, until I removed the KPL from the network, which now I can't add any devices back to the ISY.)

 

Hope that helps with the troubleshooting. I noticed that one of my time-managed scenes went on tonight so the ISY is still doing something!

[LeeG]

You may have lost that KPL. Is the KPL the only device you cannot add back or are there other devices you have tried to add since the power failure that will not add either.

 

The time managed Scene that is working, is that actually a Scene or a group of individual devices the program is controlling.

 

It sounds like the PLM is working fine particularly if the Program is controlling an actual Scene.

 

Next step is to factory reset the KPL and try adding it again.

[backinthelab]

I initially removed the KPL and two switchlinc dimmers, can't add any of them.

 

Yes, I mis-spoke, it is a time-managed program, not a scene. It turns two switchlincs on/off at dusk/dawn (outside lights).

 

I'll try a factory reset on the KPL but I'm thinking the issue runs much deeper than that. At this point, the KPL isn't' linked to the ISY, but I'm still getting the "cannot communicate" prompts for every device listed. I can't make any modifications to the ISY, so at this point it's good for controlling my outside lights and that's it. Even those, however, have the red exclamation mark and won't communicate if I try to make adjustments.

 

Is there any way I can just "format" and rebuild the ISY? As much of a PITA it would be, I'm willing to do that at this point.