Any suggestions on how to control A/C window units?

[ISYhbsh01]

Hi everyone!

 

I am looking to buy some Insteon products for the first time now. I am not completely new to the Insteon technology as I have done quite some research and read about Insteon on this and other sites & forums in anticipation of jumping in soon for quite some time.

 

So here is what I am looking to do with Insteon for now:

 

I got 6 rooms that have window A/C units. I live on the top floor of a building with no attic. When I am away for a weekend or for a day & I return at night it can take a couple of hours after putting on the a/c for the rooms to cool off. So I would like to have all the a/c units controlled by Insteon so I can put them on remotely before I get home.

 

I also want to install a keypad in the master bedroom, so I can turn on the a/c in the other rooms from there. Each button for each a/c, and the button’s LED status should tell me what the status of the a/c is. Maybe I would also install another keypad somewhere centrally located in the house.

 

However, in order to make sure that nobody shuts off the a/c by powering off the unit itself which would defeat my purpose, I also need to give everyone a way of controlling it locally in each room. But from what I have read here on this forum, pressing the button locally on either an ApplianceLinc or an OutletLinc will not send back the status to the ISY, and would cause the ISY not to know what the status of the a/c is. And the way I understand it the Keypad also wouldn’t know if it’s on or not. The a/c might be turned on locally but the LED on the button will be off. In which case when I will press the button thinking I am putting it on I will actually be shutting it off. Am I correct?

 

I guess I can install a keypad in each room & only link 1 button of it to control the a/c in that room only (I don't want the kids to be able to controll from their room ALL the a/c units), and have everyone use the keypad instead of pressing the button on the OutletLinc or ApplianceLinc to turn it on/off locally. However that option is too costly for me now & seems overkill. Also I am going to move in about half a year from a rented house to my own, so I would like to keep my wired-in Insteon products to a minimum.

 

So does anyone have any suggestions on how to set this up correctly other than installing a Keypad in every single room?

 

Thanks for your anticipated help.

[LeeG]

The a/c might be turned on locally but the LED on the button will be off. In which case when I will press the button thinking I am putting it on I will actually be shutting it off. Am I correct?

No. If the KPL button is Off (LED is Off) when you press the button it sends an ON command to all the responders. If the responder was Off it will turn on. If the responder was already On it will stay On.

 

The other part will take some research.

[brad77]

You could install a standard INSTEON switch in the room that toggles the unit on and off. That switch only needs to be connected to the neutral (common) wire and could be installed side-by-side with an existing light switch. The on/off commands sent by that switch could be used to synchronize your keypad and vice versa. I'm not as familiar with keypads, but you should be able to put all three devices (keypad, switch, Appliance/OutletLinc) into a scene so that they change together.

 

Alternatively, you could create an ISY program that queries your OutletLinc/ApplianceLinc modules to determine their status and updates your keypad accordingly. That program could run every 30-60 minutes or so to keep things in sync. You just need to ensure that your people don't turn the A/C unit on and off at the unit itself, but via the button on the ApplianceLinc or OutletLinc.

[ISYhbsh01]

That switch only needs to be connected to the neutral (common) wire and could be installed side-by-side with an existing light switch.

 

You mean to say that I don't need to connect the 2 other wires? How would the switch have power?

 

Alternatively, you could create an ISY program that queries your OutletLinc/ApplianceLinc modules to determine their status and updates your keypad accordingly.

 

That program could run every 30-60 minutes or so to keep things in sync.

 

Can I have it poll the module every 2 minutes or every minute?

 

Thanks for your help.

[LeeG]

You can poll that often but you really do not want to. Even at a 2 minute interval that is 6 outbound, 6 inbound Insteon messages to cover the 6 devices controlling AC units. That would be 360 Insteon messages per hour, every hour day and night. It is okay to poll perhaps every hour to catch up in case something was missed but not for normal minute to minute operation. There are better solutions. Just have to have time to work them out. With all the Insteon device experience on this forum and other Insteon forums such as the one at Smarthome someone will have a solution that does not revolve around the need to poll devices.

[brad77]

I suppose that you could poll that often, but that might not be a good idea. Querying does send traffic over your INSTEON network, and it might be possible to cause collisions with other traffic if you query overmuch, which might effect reliability. I'll let others chime in as to whether or not that's a legitimate concern.

 

Regarding the wiring of the "dummy" switches, I misspoke (mis-wrote). The switches need to be hooked up to the line and neutral to receive power and to communicate. You just wouldn't need to hook up a load in this situation as the switch wouldn't actually be powering anything.

[LeeG]

Are these 120V units or 240V units. Smarthome carries a 240V NC Load Controller that does sense the On/Off state of the load and sends that state information back to a responder.

 

However, that raises a question. An AC unit that is switched Off will look the same as a unit which is Off due to reaching its temperature setting. How do you want to handle this.

[ISYhbsh01]

All are 120V units.

[agent0014]

hey this might be obvious, but make sure that the AC units you're using default to an "on" state when power is restored. I had high hopes to integrate my window AC control into my current HA setup, and then realized that my digital panel AC unit loses its default temp setting AND turns on to an "off" state when power is cut and then restored. At this point my only option (unless I get a "cheaper" AC unit with analog/mechanical controls) is to get one of those insteon IR blasters and have it learn the codes for my AC remote. Sort of sucky... I haven't even bothered.

[ISYhbsh01]

That's an important point. I indeed always made sure to buy a model that will auto restart after a power outage since I was going to use them with plug-in timers. I think that virtually all of the latest makes & models, even the digital ones, have the auto restart feature.

 

Thanks.

[apostolakisl]

Your AC units probably draws a lot of electricity, I bet 1000 watts, maybe more. Most insteon items are only capable of 480 watt loads. You may need to put a relay in that is rated for the wattage and have the insteon device control the relay. I haven't dug around the SH website to know for sure if there is a simple plug in module that can handle that much power, but I don't think there is.

 

If you put a kpl in your master, a siwtchlink in each room, and an appliance link at each unit, you can create 6 scenes. Each scene includes one switchlinc, the appliancelinc in the same room, and the designated button on the KPL for that rooms unit. The status light on the KPL and on the switchlinc should follow the on/off status of the appliance linc (and thus the AC unit), assuming no missed communications.

 

You could also wire your switchlinc directly to the unit and skip the appliance linc if you have a switchable outlet near the ac unit. Again, consider the wattages and type of load. The 1000 watt switchlincs are fine for lighting loads but they might not be appropriate for an AC unit.

 

For sure you could pick up a standard 120 v relay and use the switchlinc to close the circuit to the AC unit. These can be had for cheap on ebay and have regular contact closures where type of draw is not relavent. You would have to build some proper electrical enclosures for this setup.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Outdoor ApplianceLinc Module says...

 

15 Amps; 1800 Watts (for incandescent loads)

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2456S3E/Applia ... ule/p.aspx

 

It must have a heavy duty relay inside.

 

Thanks,

[apostolakisl]

Outdoor ApplianceLinc Module says...

 

15 Amps; 1800 Watts (for incandescent loads)

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2456S3E/Applia ... ule/p.aspx

 

It must have a heavy duty relay inside.

 

Thanks,

 

Good deal Marc. Looks like that's the ticket. I little bit excessively black and bluky looking for indoor use, but you could put it behind something.

 

And if you don't have an available box in the wall for a switchlinc local control, they make table top enclosures that you could put a switchlinc into.

[ISYhbsh01]

I am far from being an electrical expert & I don't know much about the difference between watts/amps/volts. So I called smarthome's insteon gold support line a couple of days ago and asked if the appliancelinc would work with a window ac. The rep said "sure people do it all the time". I asked if he is sure about it since the specs say it has a maximum of 480 watts. He told me that the watts is only applicable for bulbs and lighting and is irelevant for non-lighting apliances. He said that for appliances you look at the amps not at the watts, and window ACs usually use 7-8 amps, while the appliancelinc supports up to 15 amp. He told me I can look at the circuit breaker to see if it's 15 or 20 amps. If it's 15 I am definitely fine. It didn't sound quite right to me but I took his word for it since I am not an electrical expert.

 

Does that make sense?

[apostolakisl]

HMMMMM. Not an EE, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. An AC unit is different as it is primarily an inductive load where as lights are a resistive load. Resistive loads tend to have a current spike when flipped on cold, and inductive loads can have kick back volts (in other words they both have their problems). I don't know what the limiting issue is inside of the switchlinc.

 

Anyway, the deal about amps and watts is not really valid. Unless you are dealing with a phase shift (power factor) which I don't think you are with AC unit, then the volts are constant at 120 and therefore watts and amps are just two different ways to measure the same thing since P (watts) = I (amps) x V (volts). In other words 8 amps is roughly 1000 watts.

 

The spec sheet does say appliances up to 15 amps. So, it sounds like you should be good to go. The switchlinc relay is also rated the same, so if per chance the outlet the AC unit is plugged into is switched, you could save some money and replace the wall switch with the switchlinc relay and not need a separate switchlinc for local control.

[LeeG]

hbsh01

 

It is always the Amps that are important. The issue with incandescent bulbs is that the initial current draw (Amps) of a cold light bulb filament is “much†higher than would be expected when doing a calculation based on Watts alone. The formula is volts * amps = watts. Once the bulb filament is hot the current draw (Amps) drops off substantially. The problem is the relay has to be capable of handling the cold filament current draw as the relay contact is closing on a set of cold filaments. That is why the incandescent Watts seems so much less than what one would expect for a relay that can handle 15 Amps. The incandescent rating is always stated in Watts as light bulbs are sold based on their Wattage, not the current (Amps) they will draw when cold.

 

The ApplianceLinc should have no trouble turning On/Off the AC. In your environment the problem is the ApplianceLinc does not have the capability to notify a controller when the local load is turned On or Off at the ApplianceLinc. Not that the ApplianceLinc cannot handle the current draw of the AC compressor.

 

Looking at the circuit breaker is one way to tell. The plug for a 240V appliance looks very different from a standard 120V plug. Also every appliance will have a label somewhere that identifies the voltage and current (amps) requirements of the appliance.

 

Lee

[lawr1000]

LeeG is right about about incandescent bulbs and their high current draw. A 120 Watt bulb will draw 1 Amp of current once it is hot. When cold the initial current can be upwards of 10 times higher. This is the reason the all Insteon switches have lower power ratings for incandescent loads.

 

The head light in a car are a whole lot worse because the battery voltage is 12V. The typical 65W bulb draws 5.5 Amps hot but can see 50Amp inrush currents.

 

The motors in the Air Conditioner also have higher startup currents than steady state but nowhere near the range of an incadescent bulbs

[apostolakisl]

hbsh01

 

 

The ApplianceLinc should have no trouble turning On/Off the AC. In your environment the problem is the ApplianceLinc does not have the capability to notify a controller when the local load is turned On or Off at the ApplianceLinc. Not that the ApplianceLinc cannot handle the current draw of the AC compressor.

 

 

Lee

 

That's why you use a switchlinc locally and kpl in the distant room to control the appliancelinc. You never need to touch the actual AC unit or appliance linc. The switchlinc and kpl in the other room will track the status of the appliancelinc provided you use them to turn it on or off. (Assuming of course the insteon signal gets through)

 

 

Resistive Loads have the cold-on spike, but 10 times seems like a lot. That would mean that a 1000 watt loads initial draw could be 90 amps. For that to happen and not pop the breaker it would have to be very very brief.

[LeeG]

Apostolakisl

 

Of course you do not need to turn the AC Off locally but the OP wants to know if that does happen. A human will always find a way to screw it up if a way exists. Some of us even have fun trying. The LampLinc was updated years ago to provide that capability. So far none of the relay devices looked at provide the equivalent function.

 

Lee

[apostolakisl]

Apostolakisl

 

Of course you do not need to turn the AC Off locally but the OP wants to know if that does happen. A human will always find a way to screw it up if a way exists. Some of us even have fun trying. The LampLinc was updated years ago to provide that capability. So far none of the relay devices looked at provide the equivalent function.

 

Lee

 

Trouble with an AC unit is that it cylces anyway. So even if the appliancelinc monitored itself for current draw, you wouldn't know if it was just off because it had reached temp.

 

If you want to be sure that no one messes with the controls, I would suggest makeing a cover for the control panel on the unit. Much like you see for standard wall thermostats.

[lawr1000]

Clearly Smart Home needs to develop an Insteon enabled AC unit and all your problems would be solved.

[ISYhbsh01]

Thanks everyone!

 

So it's obvious from what everybody is saying, that the SmartHome guy was actually right with what he told me.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Clearly Smart Home needs to develop an Insteon enabled AC unit and all your problems would be solved.

That is the idea of the INSTEON modem chip that could be integrated into almost anything, but getting companies to by in and do it is anther thing.

 

Thanks,

[Brian H]

Yes there doesn't seem to be much demand for the Insteon Modem Chip.

[brad77]

It sounds to me that it doesn't matter much if the AC unit cycles off when the temp is reached. The OP indicated that he wanted to kick the units on in the late afternoon to cool the rooms a bit before the evening. If the units shut themselves off once the target temp is reached, the mission is accomplished. The KPL may be out of sync for a short time, but all should work fine.

 

If local temp is adjusted too high, you're out of luck of course.