Near simultaneous button presses

[MikeB]

One thing that annoys me with Insteon is how it handles near simultaneous button presses. For example, if I have 2 non-load controlling SwitchLincs in a single box, and turn them off simultaneously (or close to it), the commands do not get through. They seem to basically cancel eachother out.

 

I've learned to live with that, but tonight I noticed something else that seems to be related.

 

I have a KeypadLinc with a button that indicates if a lighting scene is on. A program on the ISY-26 checks to see if the lights are set in a certain way. If they are, the LED stays lit. If I change one of the lights, they ISY-26 sees the status change, and the program turns the LED off.

 

I have a RemoteLinc that controls those lights, plus others. Normally, if I hit the button on the remote light to turn the TABLE light off (which is part of my lighting scene), the ISY sees this change and turns my SCENE STATUS LED off. In general, it works very reliably. However, tonight I noticed that if I used my RemoteLinc to turn my KITCHEN light off, then quickly used it to turn my TABLE light off, the ISY would not see the status change of the TABLE light and the SCENE STATUS LED would stay on. Now, the RemoteLinc commands did go through, because the lights turned off like they should, the problem is the ISY never knew my TABLE light turned off so my SCENE STATUS LED stayed on. I tried this several times, and it was very reproduceable.

 

So, I guess my point is that I'm having trouble getting accurate status updates to the ISY when there are button presses in quick succession. If I'm going to have a status LED, I want to make sure it's accurate. If it's not going to be, I'd rather not use one.

 

Anyone else have any experience with this or anything similar? Any suggestions?

[Michel Kohanim]

MikeB,

 

What this means is that the RL commands are not getting through to the PLM. Now, to make sure this is not an ISY bug, if you use your RL just for the Kitchen, do the statuses get updated correctly in ISY?

 

If so, then the problem could be AccessPoints not being in the right places or the PLM is not sensitive enough to hear it.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

One thing that annoys me with Insteon is how it handles near simultaneous button presses. For example, if I have 2 non-load controlling SwitchLincs in a single box, and turn them off simultaneously (or close to it), the commands do not get through. They seem to basically cancel eachother out.

 

I've learned to live with that, but tonight I noticed something else that seems to be related.

 

I have a KeypadLinc with a button that indicates if a lighting scene is on. A program on the ISY-26 checks to see if the lights are set in a certain way. If they are, the LED stays lit. If I change one of the lights, they ISY-26 sees the status change, and the program turns the LED off.

 

I have a RemoteLinc that controls those lights, plus others. Normally, if I hit the button on the remote light to turn the TABLE light off (which is part of my lighting scene), the ISY sees this change and turns my SCENE STATUS LED off. In general, it works very reliably. However, tonight I noticed that if I used my RemoteLinc to turn my KITCHEN light off, then quickly used it to turn my TABLE light off, the ISY would not see the status change of the TABLE light and the SCENE STATUS LED would stay on. Now, the RemoteLinc commands did go through, because the lights turned off like they should, the problem is the ISY never knew my TABLE light turned off so my SCENE STATUS LED stayed on. I tried this several times, and it was very reproduceable.

 

So, I guess my point is that I'm having trouble getting accurate status updates to the ISY when there are button presses in quick succession. If I'm going to have a status LED, I want to make sure it's accurate. If it's not going to be, I'd rather not use one.

 

Anyone else have any experience with this or anything similar? Any suggestions?

[Guest]

MikeB,

 

What this means is that the RL commands are not getting through to the PLM. Now, to make sure this is not an ISY bug, if you use your RL just for the Kitchen, do the statuses get updated correctly in ISY?

 

If so, then the problem could be AccessPoints not being in the right places or the PLM is not sensitive enough to hear it.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

One thing that annoys me with Insteon is how it handles near simultaneous button presses. For example, if I have 2 non-load controlling SwitchLincs in a single box, and turn them off simultaneously (or close to it), the commands do not get through. They seem to basically cancel eachother out.

 

I've learned to live with that, but tonight I noticed something else that seems to be related.

 

I have a KeypadLinc with a button that indicates if a lighting scene is on. A program on the ISY-26 checks to see if the lights are set in a certain way. If they are, the LED stays lit. If I change one of the lights, they ISY-26 sees the status change, and the program turns the LED off.

 

I have a RemoteLinc that controls those lights, plus others. Normally, if I hit the button on the remote light to turn the TABLE light off (which is part of my lighting scene), the ISY sees this change and turns my SCENE STATUS LED off. In general, it works very reliably. However, tonight I noticed that if I used my RemoteLinc to turn my KITCHEN light off, then quickly used it to turn my TABLE light off, the ISY would not see the status change of the TABLE light and the SCENE STATUS LED would stay on. Now, the RemoteLinc commands did go through, because the lights turned off like they should, the problem is the ISY never knew my TABLE light turned off so my SCENE STATUS LED stayed on. I tried this several times, and it was very reproduceable.

 

So, I guess my point is that I'm having trouble getting accurate status updates to the ISY when there are button presses in quick succession. If I'm going to have a status LED, I want to make sure it's accurate. If it's not going to be, I'd rather not use one.

 

Anyone else have any experience with this or anything similar? Any suggestions?

 

I am probably wrong but I dont think it is the remorelinc/accesspoint (or the ISY) THe lights turned off so we know that communication went through. I think that there is to much traffic at once and some of the messages are not making it for the status. I think thats not a hardware issue but a protocal issue where there are to many message in a short time that do not make it. Hardware could overcome this if the messaging was slowed down or if a query could be done later ... say 5 seconds later... to update the keypadlinc light.

 

But like I said I am probably wrong....

[yardman 49]

Hello all:

 

I've experienced similar problems. Sometimes you'll even see the status light on the RemoteLinc start blinking, I guess indicating that there's still a lot of group cleanup traffic going on.

 

One thing that I do is that I've put in a 2 or 3 second delay on the "status change" that I'm making on my KPL buttons. I figure that as long as I ultimately know what the state of my lights are, I don't care if I have to wait for a few seconds for the message to get through.

 

I've just had to learn to live with the fact that Insteon is still far from perfect. I'd just be happy if they'd give us a PLM that has its "hearing" fixed.

 

Tonight I actually had to put an AccessPoint back on my PLM due to problems with network queries (I haven't had to do that for quite a while). I think that I know what was causing the line interference, but at the time I couldn't shut it off or unplug it.

 

It's just discouraging that the PLM is so finicky. Some times everything works good, and other times not. I wouldn't be surprised, Mike, if your PLM was also being a little weird tonight.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

[MikeB]

OK, cooler heads prevail. I was tired last night, so please excuse me for not doing my due diligence before posting!!

 

My problem was NOT solely caused by quick button presses. I tested with other buttons on my RemoteLinc, and even very quick button presses were acknowledged, even if they take a couple seconds to update.

 

My problem seemed to be that particular switch, a KeypadLinc v1.5, who's status wasn't updating correctly on the ISY. But ONLY when controlled via my RemoteLinc, and only randomly. Sometimes it was updating fine. The other odd thing (odd in my home, anyway) about this switch was that I used a longer ramp rate with this light.

 

I don't understand what the issue was, but it seems to be gone now. I ended up removing the RemoteLinc, factory resetting it, and re-adding it to the ISY. I recreated the links and settings, but I still had the issue but ONLY with that 1 light. I tried swapping buttons on the RL around to be sure it wasn't just button 2 that was having the issue, but it happened also on button 3 which was working 100% controlling a different light. So, I reset all the ramp rates, and re-linked everything the way it was originally. I was using a 4.5 second ramp rate, but I now brought it down to .5 seconds (which I kind of wanted to do anyway). Now everything is working 100%. Or at least 99%.

 

This doesn't make sense to me, but maybe it will to someone else. Could a long ramp rate on the remote be affecting ISY updates with quick button presses?

[Michel Kohanim]

Mike,

 

Thanks for the update.

 

Your RL is a controller in a scene, your KPL is either a controller/responder in a scene, and you have some other responders in the scene, right?

 

If this the case, the ONLY explanation is that the signal from your RL button presses does NOT get to the PLM OR it's an ISY bug. ISY does not query any devices for their statuses when you press a button: it predicts what values they should have.

 

 

Questions:

1. In the scene with that RL, does ISY correctly update the status of the other responders?

2. If you look at the RL's main view for that button (under My Lighting), does the status change when you click on that button?

 

If the answer to both of the above is YES, then we have an ISY bug to contend with!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

OK, cooler heads prevail. I was tired last night, so please excuse me for not doing my due diligence before posting!!

 

My problem was NOT solely caused by quick button presses. I tested with other buttons on my RemoteLinc, and even very quick button presses were acknowledged, even if they take a couple seconds to update.

 

My problem seemed to be that particular switch, a KeypadLinc v1.5, who's status wasn't updating correctly on the ISY. But ONLY when controlled via my RemoteLinc, and only randomly. Sometimes it was updating fine. The other odd thing (odd in my home, anyway) about this switch was that I used a longer ramp rate with this light.

 

I don't understand what the issue was, but it seems to be gone now. I ended up removing the RemoteLinc, factory resetting it, and re-adding it to the ISY. I recreated the links and settings, but I still had the issue but ONLY with that 1 light. I tried swapping buttons on the RL around to be sure it wasn't just button 2 that was having the issue, but it happened also on button 3 which was working 100% controlling a different light. So, I reset all the ramp rates, and re-linked everything the way it was originally. I was using a 4.5 second ramp rate, but I now brought it down to .5 seconds (which I kind of wanted to do anyway). Now everything is working 100%. Or at least 99%.

 

This doesn't make sense to me, but maybe it will to someone else. Could a long ramp rate on the remote be affecting ISY updates with quick button presses?

[MikeB]

Your RL is a controller in a scene, your KPL is either a controller/responder in a scene, and you have some other responders in the scene, right?

 

Button 2 of the RemoteLinc is a controller, the load button on the KPL is a controller (it controls the load). That's it.

 

If this the case, the ONLY explanation is that the signal from your RL button presses does NOT get to the PLM OR it's an ISY bug. ISY does not query any devices for their statuses when you press a button: it predicts what values they should have.

 

I would assume some kind of communication issue, since it seemed intermittent, but I had the remote literally 12 feet from the AccessPoint which is sitting on top of the PLM, so I'm not sure how the PLM would have missed the signal.

 

 

Questions:

1. In the scene with that RL, does ISY correctly update the status of the other responders?

 

Yes - when I press the RemoteLinc button 2, that KPL load turns on and off EVERY time. It's only the ISY that was not ackowledging the status change.

 

2. If you look at the RL's main view for that button (under My Lighting), does the status change when you click on that button?

 

No - I BELIEVE it was not changing the status of the RL either. As of right now, the problem is not occurring, so I can't say for certain. As odd as it seems, the problem went away when I lowered the ramp rates.

 

I'll get more info if the problem returns.

[MikeB]

OK...

 

After resetting that KPL to factory defaults (per my email to you), the RemoteLinc issue is happening again.

 

Get this. I pull all my APs off my powerline, except for the one on the back of the PLM. Intermittently, still, button 2 of the RemoteLinc (or whatever button I have linked to that KPL) will not report it's status to the ISY consistently. The ISY thinks the status of the RL button 2 is OFF, and the KPL load is OFF. But, the KPL turns ON as expected. SOMETIMES, but not always, the RL will flash indicating a missed communication/retry. Sometimes it will work fine. Even when it doesn't work, the PLM and AP LED flickers indicating activity of some sort.

 

The other 3 buttons on the RL linked to other scenes work 100%, and the status on the ISY updates perfectly.

[MikeB]

Wait - there's more!!

 

I have a spare RL kicking around. I add it to the ISY, and I test button 2. Flawless. I hit the button on and off 20 times, and the ISY shows the status update each time.

 

I add it to my THEATERTABLE scene (so it controls the load of my KPL v1.5). Now the ISY will only intermittently see the status changes of my spare RL button 2.

[MikeB]

Sorry for the machine gun updates, but I want to make sure I post up every step I'm doing here.

 

So, I keep the scene THEATERTABLE, but I remove the KPL v1.5 load button. This leaves only my THEATERREMOTE button 2, and my SPAREREMOTE button 2 in this scene.

 

Now, the ISY will see the status updates from both RemoteLincs no problem.

 

Basically, at this point, it seems in my system that adding the KPL v1.5 load button to a scene containing a RemoteLinc button will stop the ISY from consistently recognizing that RemoteLinc button's presses.

[yardman 49]

Hello Mike:

 

I'm really sorry to hear about your troubles. I can empathize, having gone through many late nights trying to figure out what was going on with my system!

 

Thanks for documenting everything that you're finding with the KPL 1.5. I'm certain that when the smoke has cleared, it will be very valuable in figuring out yet another nuance of Insteon.

 

 

Best wishes,

[MikeB]

Thanks for the encouragement Frank.

 

I worked with Michel a bit on this, and for some reason adding a basic LampLinc to the troublesome scene kicked it into submission and status updates started working. I then removed the LampLinc, and it stayed working.

 

I'm done playing for now, but I have a feeling I will need to revisit this issue at some point...

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks so very much for the updates and the feedback. I do think that this problem has to do with the fact that both of these devices are I2 but I cannot be sure simply because of the intermittent nature of the results.

 

Please do keep me posted so that we can get to the bottom of this.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Thanks for the encouragement Frank.

 

I worked with Michel a bit on this, and for some reason adding a basic LampLinc to the troublesome scene kicked it into submission and status updates started working. I then removed the LampLinc, and it stayed working.

 

I'm done playing for now, but I have a feeling I will need to revisit this issue at some point...

[yardman 49]

Hello Michel & Mike:

 

Michel wrote:

 

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks so very much for the updates and the feedback. I do think that this problem has to do with the fact that both of these devices are I2 but I cannot be sure simply because of the intermittent nature of the results.

 

Can you explain what the second "I2" device was? Was it the Lamplinc that you added to the scene, Mike?

 

Also: is there a list of I2 device revision numbers posted somewhere? It would be good to know what device revisions are I2 when we get something new in from SmartHome. Then we can possibly correlate new problems with the I2 products.

 

I would suggest that we keep the list as a "sticky" somewhere here on the UD forums.

 

 

Thanks much.

[MikeB]

The theory is that the RemoteLinc and KPL v1.5 both have I2 firmware, and they were the only 2 devices in the scene.

 

Apparently the LampLinc isn't I2, so adding it in introduced a non-I2 device into the scene.

[yardman 49]

The theory is that the RemoteLinc and KPL v1.5 both have I2 firmware, and they were the only 2 devices in the scene.

 

Apparently the LampLinc isn't I2, so adding it in introduced a non-I2 device into the scene.

 

Hello Mike:

 

Does that mean that all RemoteLincs that have shipped have been I2?

 

Thanks

[MikeB]

That's my understanding, but I have no idea how accurate that is.