Pioneer Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Hi - I have a Insteon Keypad (6) and a Timer relay running a fan. I have the Timer and Keypad A button dual linked, so that pressing "A" turns on the Timer, again turns it off, and if I turn the Timer on/off directly the A lights up or unlights. I have both items "learned" in the ISY software (latest version)... however If I turn the Timer on manually for example, the A lights up as planned, but the software does not notice that A has been lit up (due to the Insteon linking) Secondly, I have tried "Query" on the keypad A button item, but it still shows "Off". * Is this a software glitch, or a limitation due to the way Insteon programming works? * Why doesn't query work on the device, or am I misunderstanding what "Query" is suppose to do (in the right mouse click on the item in the list). I am guessing someone will tell me to use the ISY to handle the remote button pressing -- I suppose I could do that, but to me I would prefer to use the internal mechanisms when possible, as they will a) be highly reliable (both switches are on the same circuit) and no need to be concerned about a third item in the loop. I would prefer to use the ISY for more complex items not required. -John
Michel Kohanim Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Hi - I have a Insteon Keypad (6) and a Timer relay running a fan. I have the Timer and Keypad A button dual linked, so that pressing "A" turns on the Timer, again turns it off, and if I turn the Timer on/off directly the A lights up or unlights. I have both items "learned" in the ISY software (latest version)... however If I turn the Timer on manually for example, the A lights up as planned, but the software does not notice that A has been lit up (due to the Insteon linking) Secondly, I have tried "Query" on the keypad A button item, but it still shows "Off". * Is this a software glitch, or a limitation due to the way Insteon programming works? * Why doesn't query work on the device, or am I misunderstanding what "Query" is suppose to do (in the right mouse click on the item in the list). I am guessing someone will tell me to use the ISY to handle the remote button pressing -- I suppose I could do that, but to me I would prefer to use the internal mechanisms when possible, as they will a) be highly reliable (both switches are on the same circuit) and no need to be concerned about a third item in the loop. I would prefer to use the ISY for more complex items not required. -John John, First of all, I have to address your concern: ... I would prefer to use the internal mechanisms when possible, as they will a) be highly reliable (both switches are on the same circuit) and no need to be concerned about a third item in the loop ISY is in the loop if and only if 1.You are programming (creating scenes, adjusting ramp rates, etc.) 2.You want to use ISY's scheduling/trigger functions In short, when you are done programming switches/buttons/scenes you can simply unplug ISY and all your buttons/scenes should work as programmed. The reason that you cannot see the the state of your KPL button, is that for KPLs, only the load button is associated with a status (on/off/level). The rest of the buttons (A, B, C, D, ...) do not have any states unless they are part of a scene/group. In this respect, then it seems to me that you are trying to use your existing links (between the timer and the KPL) which means that ISY's PLM is not part of the scene and thus ISY shall never be notified of any changes on the KPL buttons (except for the load). If I've been able to allay your concerns vis-a-vis a third item in the loop, may I humbly ask you to: a. Create a scene b. Drop your timer as a controller into the scene c. Drop you KPL button as a controller into the scene d. Right mouse click on the KPL button and choose Restore Device e. Right mouse click on the timer and choose Restore Device In this scenario, everything will work as you suggest + ISY (if plugged in) shall be notified of the changes either on the KPL button or the switch. With kind regards, Michel
Pioneer Posted June 27, 2007 Author Posted June 27, 2007 Maybe I am misunderstanding what the ISY is used for then -- I understand that insteon products, for example two insteon switches, can communicate with each other and can be setup without software... so If I have switches A and B, I can link them directly to each other so each one sends a signal to the other. From what I understand, the ISY is a separate device for which I can link A to ISY and B to ISY, and then ISY can do something similar, acting as a liaison between the two, so If I press A, signal goes to ISY which has been informed to send a signal to B and vice versa. Regarding Scenes, you mentioned once I setup a scene I can unplug the ISY -- this leads me to believe that by using "Scenes", I am actually programming the internal linking of the Insteon devices, so that A talks directly to B and vice versa -- is this correct? I just did a test of the above, and from what I can tell that is what is happening (Scenes are directly programming insteon device). If I am correct, then it sounds like what you told me to do was to re-do what I had already done, but within the software... and either one of these two is what happens: * By programming the same thing thru the software, some extra information is saved in the device to understand just how A & B communicate so that the system can "figure out" that when I press A, the light on B changes as well... OR * By programming thru the software, the ISY asked each switch to not only talk to each other but to send a message to the ISY device as well so that the ISY can know the light has changed Is either one of these correct? Next questions * is there a way to query switches that have already been setup to be linked (manually) to showup as scenes in the ISY?... or must they be programmed thru the software... * Is there an easy way to update the status reversely -- for example if I have switches A (master),B,C which all link together and I want the status to change on all of them if either is pressed, must I create three scenes to do this such that: Scene1: Pressing A turns on/off light and tells B/C status of light Scene 2: perssing B turns on/off light A and tells C status of light Scene 3: pressing C turns on/off light A and tells B status of light When I recreated what you suggested earlier, I had to create a second scene it seems to reverse the light setup. -John
Michel Kohanim Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Maybe I am misunderstanding what the ISY is used for then -- From what I understand, the ISY is a separate device for which I can link A to ISY and B to ISY, and then ISY can do something similar, acting as a liaison between the two, so If I press A, signal goes to ISY which has been informed to send a signal to B and vice versa. No. ISY acts as a liason if and only if you want to use ISY triggers/scheduling/access on the web. Regarding Scenes, you mentioned once I setup a scene I can unplug the ISY -- this leads me to believe that by using "Scenes", I am actually programming the internal linking of the Insteon devices, so that A talks directly to B and vice versa -- is this correct? Yes, absolutely correct. If I am correct, then it sounds like what you told me to do was to re-do what I had already done, but within the software... and either one of these two is what happens: * By programming the same thing thru the software, some extra information is saved in the device to understand just how A & B communicate so that the system can "figure out" that when I press A, the light on B changes as well... Partly OR * By programming thru the software, the ISY asked each switch to not only talk to each other but to send a message to the ISY device as well so that the ISY can know the light has changed 100% correct Next questions * is there a way to query switches that have already been setup to be linked (manually) to showup as scenes in the ISY?... or must they be programmed thru the software... Unfortunately, although the firmware supports it but we had to remove it from the applet as it made everything more confusing; i.e. for each device, go through the linked devices, if there's a controller in the linked devices, do the same, continue till you find all the linked controllers. When done, check each controllers linked responders and figure out which set of responders are the same for each controller and then make a group. In most cases, we ended up with disjoint sets and thus created spurious groups which had to be removed/merged. * Is there an easy way to update the status reversely -- for example if I have switches A (master),B,C which all link together and I want the status to change on all of them if either is pressed, must I create three scenes to do this such that: Scene1: Pressing A turns on/off light and tells B/C status of light Scene 2: perssing B turns on/off light A and tells C status of light Scene 3: pressing C turns on/off light A and tells B status of light Yes, there's a much easier way: make A, B, and C all controllers in one scene. In this case, then, all switches will follow the status of one another When I recreated what you suggested earlier, I had to create a second scene it seems to reverse the light setup. If I understood your question correctly, what I suggested in the previous step should fix your problems. With kind regards, Michel
Sub-Routine Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Pioneer, Scenes were a bit of trouble for me to understand. The ISY scenes are a little different than I was thinking. This is a good thread to read: Scenes 101. Rand
Pioneer Posted June 28, 2007 Author Posted June 28, 2007 Michel -- can you give a little more detail on how communications work with the Insteon switches and ISY. I have played around with what you suggested, and it did work -- to a degree. I had 3 switches A (dimmer - main),B (switch),C (keypad button) that controlled a light -- made them all "Controllers" and they all linked properly and functioned... however it seemed confusing as to which setting in the software did which level and if I turned the light on with the Dimmer (A) then B and C never lit up. . -------- How would you do something like this: A - a light in one room B - a light in another room C - a light in a third room D - a keypad button Pressing A,B, or C turns on their respective lights -- but also if A,B or C are turned on manually then the D lights up to indicate "there is a light on somewhere" Pressing D when it is lit up, sends a signal to A,B and C to shut off. (The other option is that D never lights up -- that pressing D will turn it on for a second as it sends signals to A,B,C to shutoff and then the D LED turns off. this is not optimal as you have no indication lights are still on -- you would just be able to press D to make sure everything was off) Last option -- what if you wanted it to work as the first part, but turning D on turned all lights on, turning D off turned all lights off, but turning A,B, or C on manually had D light up -- basically D lit up indicates "some light is on somewhere, press me again to turn everything off".
Michel Kohanim Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Michel -- can you give a little more detail on how communications work with the Insteon switches and ISY. I have played around with what you suggested, and it did work -- to a degree. I had 3 switches A (dimmer - main),B (switch),C (keypad button) that controlled a light -- made them all "Controllers" and they all linked properly and functioned... however it seemed confusing as to which setting in the software did which level and if I turned the light on with the Dimmer (A) then B and C never lit up. . -------- How would you do something like this: A - a light in one room B - a light in another room C - a light in a third room D - a keypad button Pressing A,B, or C turns on their respective lights -- but also if A,B or C are turned on manually then the D lights up to indicate "there is a light on somewhere" Pressing D when it is lit up, sends a signal to A,B and C to shut off. (The other option is that D never lights up -- that pressing D will turn it on for a second as it sends signals to A,B,C to shutoff and then the D LED turns off. this is not optimal as you have no indication lights are still on -- you would just be able to press D to make sure everything was off) Last option -- what if you wanted it to work as the first part, but turning D on turned all lights on, turning D off turned all lights off, but turning A,B, or C on manually had D light up -- basically D lit up indicates "some light is on somewhere, press me again to turn everything off". Pioneer, For more technical information, please refer to http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=21 . You got it right! All you have to do is to make a scene where A, B, C, and D are all controllers. As far as which settings control what: If you click on the Scene icon on the Nav Pane (to your left), to your right, at the bottom, you are given the option of setting on level/ramp rate for all the members of that scene. Please note that these setting are only applicable if you turn on/off that scene through ISY. Now, for each controller with in a scene, you have the option of having different on level/ramp rates for all the other members of the scene. To do so, within a scene icon, click on the controller icon you'd like to adjust. To your bottom right you will see all the permissible on level/ramp rates that you can adjust for all the other members of the scene. I hope I've been able to answer your questions, With kind regards, Michel
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