Can't get anything to link!

[genek]

I have a small system that has been functioning OK (only marginally better than my old X10 system). A couple of months ago things started not working and I didn't have time to troubleshoot. So I decided today I would try to dig into this.

 

Basically I can't get anything to link. I've tried all the various methods including knowing the address. Everything that controls something (lights, outlets, etc.) has an exclamation point. The remotes and buttons show the little grid but no current status.

 

My ISY reports the PLM is there (F.43.26 v7A/Connected).

 

My remote links all seem happy (although I'm never too sure about that).

 

I'll take any help I can get figuring out how to troubleshoot.

 

Thank you!

Gene

[LeeG]

genek

 

Sorry to hear Insteon did not have a better reliability. For sure there has been a problem for some time if Insteon was not working well from the start. Many possibilities.

 

If X10 devices are still in use be sure none have Boosterlinc technology active. BoosterLinc interferes with Insteon signals.

 

Does device to device control work versus ISY control of devices does not. This will help identify if a powerline wide problem or isolated to the circuit the ISY PLM is on. To expand on this question can devices be directly linked using the Set button method if no device to device scenes have been established.

 

Also the ISY PLM can be plugged into a good 3 wire extension cord and the PLM plug point changed to a different electrical circuit.

 

With some gross analysis to determine how wide spread the powerline communication problem, it should be easier to know what the next steps in analysis are.

 

EDIT: do you have Access Points or other Dual Band devices coupling the 120V legs. If so did they pass the install test that verified on opposite 120V legs.

 

Lee

[genek]

Lee:

 

Thank you for the reply.

 

No boosterlinc installed. That was removed when I first installed.

 

I can link device to device although I have not tried it with all devices, just a few.

 

I have not tried moving the PLM to another electrical source.

 

I do not know if my access points are for sure coupling my 2 phases but since they are in the same places that they were before, and since every device was working previously, this does not seem relevant to the large scale issues I am having now.

 

Nothing has changed recently in our home. We don't have all of the electronics filtered, we do have plenty of CFLs, etc., but nothing has really changed.

 

I was hoping for some solid troubleshooting techniques so as to avoid many iterations of guessing. This is my biggest problem with Insteon. I put up with having to return all the access points initially because of a software

re bug but after being relatively stable, having system wide problems and no way to focus on the problem is really frustrating. I don't know where to find the troubleshooting methods, and /or I don't have the tools but swapping outlets, trying new PLMs, and so forth is not good use of my time. I am open to someone changing my mind but as it stands now all of this seems like it is at the hobbyist level and if the user doesn't find playing around with this stuff as satisfying then it really isn't the type of product I need to have in my home.

 

What I need is a good method for troubleshooting or to just rip it all out. Funny thing was my home vision system was stable and operated with virtually no maintenance for aver 10 years. True, X10 was about 75% but never anything as frustrating as this!

 

If someone can point me to some solid troubleshooting methods I will spend the time. Otherwise it is all coming out and I'll offer it for sale on bay, along with the appropriate warnings to the prospective buyer.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Gene,

 

Only one comment:

PLMs v 52 and up to v85 had major instability problems. 7A had problems with sensitivity ... so, the best way to test if your PLM is the issue, is to try and plugin a lamp module right on to it and see if you can link to it.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[oberkc]

I was hoping for some solid troubleshooting techniques so as to avoid many iterations of guessing. This is my biggest problem with Insteon.

 

Mine, too. I guess you can count me as one of those hobbyists.

 

There are a couple of things that one can do to confirm that the parts are working....plug modules directly into the PLM, for example. Make sure you use incandescent bulbs for testing. It is pretty easy to plug the PLM into an extension cord and into another circuit to see if getting it away from all the computer equipment helps.

 

But....once you conclude that you have some form of interference, it becomes an educated guessing game...unplugging things and shutting down of circuits until your problem goes away. I wish I had the secret method to give out to you.

 

I think if I could wish for one new insteon device, at the top of the list would be that tool that can measure signal quality and interference.

[LeeG]

There are many knowledgeable folks on this forum. By following their suggestions the problems can be identified and resolved.

[Brian H]

We have seen things like CFLs deteriorate and make things intermittently work. That originally where not a problem.

 

So no physical changes to the home can't rule out something originally OK is now a problem.

[genek]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I did some direct device to device linking and am finding that this method is unstable as well. Especially when trying to unlink a device.

 

I'm opting out. Living with X10 reliability was one thing but this much worse because I expected so much more. I figure I have about $700+ in my parts and that is just dollars down the drain. Plus my frustration. Keep an eye on e-bay as my intention is to pull everything out and sell it in one lot. You guys looking for spares, etc. should get a great deal!

 

Thanks again for the helpful support and I wish you folks on the forum the best.

 

Gene

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello Gene,

 

I am so very sorry to hear this and I totally understand your frustration. I would've been feeling the same after spending so much money and then having to chase down signal issues.

 

All this said, I truly believe that getting your PLM replaced with a dual band is going to help a lot. If we can get SmartHome to send you a replacement PLM (free of charge hopefully), would you be amenable in trying to spend one more hour of your valuable time?

 

If so, please send an email to support@universal-devices.com and let us coordinate a PLM replacement for you.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Buzzhazz]

Hi Gene,

 

Only one comment:

PLMs v 52 and up to v85 had major instability problems. 7A had problems with sensitivity ... so, the best way to test if your PLM is the issue, is to try and plugin a lamp module right on to it and see if you can link to it.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hi Michel

 

I have been having intermittent communication failures and a lot of system busy messages. Is this symptomatic of PLM problems?

 

When I check the PLM status, it takes about a minute for the progress bar to complete and then I get 12.9C.72 v85/Connected. Other times when I click on the test, nothing seems to happen.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello buzzhazzard,

 

Please go to Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer and change the level to last possible.

 

1. What do you see?

2. Do you see any green 0101 icons for any of the devices

3. Do you see any Writing icons for any of the devices

 

I suspect ISY is trying to synch up with one (or more) of devices that have pending device updates and thus all the errors. If you have PRO series, you can turn off Batch and see if there are any differences.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Buzzhazz]

Hello buzzhazzard,

 

Please go to Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer and change the level to last possible.

 

1. What do you see?

2. Do you see any green 0101 icons for any of the devices

3. Do you see any Writing icons for any of the devices

 

I suspect ISY is trying to synch up with one (or more) of devices that have pending device updates and thus all the errors. If you have PRO series, you can turn off Batch and see if there are any differences.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hi Michel

 

When I go to Tools|Diagnostics|Event Viewer, the Level choices are:

 

None

Status/Operational Events

More Info

Device Communication Events

 

Each of those report windows is blank.

 

I am running 2.8.7--have not upgraded to the latest yet if that matters.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello buzzhazzard,

 

Please upgrade to 2.8.10 so that we all have the same point of reference.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Buzzhazz]

Hello buzzhazzard,

 

Please upgrade to 2.8.10 so that we all have the same point of reference.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

OK, I have upgraded, carefully following the new instructions. I am showing v2.8.10.

 

My choices are still the same however under Tools|Diagnostics|Event Viewer. Last is not a choice under the "Level" menu. The windows were blank becasue I had apparently cleared them earlier this evening, so there is data in the window now though it appears to be the same regardless of which "Level" option I select.

 

I have turned "Automatic Writes to Devices" off. When I write click on a device that supposedly has a pending write (though I don't know what that wuld be as I have not changed anything on that device), I get:

 

Failed Writing Device Link

 

[-200000/-51]

 

I'm a fairly tech proficient guy but the ISY and Insteon in general are still new to me.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello buzzhazzard,

 

This basically means that ISY cannot communicate with the device for which there's a pending update.

 

We have to figure out why this is the case. If this is an RF device, then you have to make sure it's in Programming mode. If not, then there's something that blocks communications with this device.

 

If you wish to test the rest of the system, you can disable all those devices with pending updates and then, one at a time, enable each and figure out what's causing the communications errors.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Buzzhazz]

Hello buzzhazzard,

 

This basically means that ISY cannot communicate with the device for which there's a pending update.

 

We have to figure out why this is the case. If this is an RF device, then you have to make sure it's in Programming mode. If not, then there's something that blocks communications with this device.

 

If you wish to test the rest of the system, you can disable all those devices with pending updates and then, one at a time, enable each and figure out what's causing the communications errors.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hello again Michel

 

Well today I did a lot of reading here on these forums and have made some excellent progress. As of a few days ago, my setup consisted of the ISY with one access point plugged into the accompanying PLM and the other in another room on the opposite phase and a single Insteon device. It worked fine, but it was just for play till I could install more devices.

 

With the basement project almost complete, I added a number of devices throughout the house a couple of days ago, so now I have (roughly):

 

--Four KeyPadLinks

--Two Dual Band SwitchLincs

--Five ICON Dimmers

 

I have quite a few left to install, but after installing the above I had obvious communications issues with a number of the devices. Sometimes devices would update via the ISY but often they would remain with the small green icon next to them. Once circuit in particular was frustrating even though it only had incandescent lights on it.

 

Fast forward to today. I installed a SignaLinc at one of the two breaker boxes and that helped a LOT. Several of the devices with pending writes successfully updated, but the trouble circuit was still not allowing me to link to new devices (five of the eleven are on that circuit) and i could not link devices together. Then it dawned on me that one light was controlled by an older X-10 KPL, and I remember reading that some of them had BoosterLinc. Rather than research how to defeat that feature, I simply disconnected it and I was immediately able to get the ISY to link to the devices and to each other. It was sucking away the Insteon signal big time.

 

I have been putting the ISY through its paces this evening creating and deleting scenes and triggering devices on and off, and the execution has been very reliable but I do have a few questions.

 

1) I have one virtual three-way consisting of a KPL (controls the load) and an ICON dimmer. I have another virtual four-way circuit consisting of a KPL (controls the load) and two ICON dimmers. They are all linked as controllers to their respective virtual circuits. I can control the respective loads locally from all of the switches without problems. From the ISY, if I turn the device that controls the load on or off, it works fine. If I use the ISY to turn the non-load carrying devices On or Off, the load itself does not respond even though the actual device does--that is, I can watch the LEDs on the ICONS cycle on and off with the ISY commands, but the load does not respond. That behavior is consistent with every "slave" switch. Is that normal?

 

2) The ISY is recognizing an eight key KPL as a six key KPL. I have verified that the KPL is in eight button configuration by following the KPL instructions. In the right hand pane of the Admin Console, the device is listed as a (2486D) KeypadLinc Dimmer 8 Buttons v.36 but in the left hand pane the device is showing up with the main device and four additional nodes. How can I fix that?

 

3) This is really a SmartHome question, but in looking at the dual band portion of the DB dimmers, it describes using the SwitchLinc to bridge phases. I know for a fact that that the two switches are on opposite phases because I wired them that way myself. Physically, they are about ten feet apart. The instructions say:

 

--Start Phase Bridging Detection Mode* by tapping the Set button on SwitchLinc four times quickly SwitchLinc should begin beeping and the LED should be solid. The load may turn on or flash

 

--Check the LED behavior of your other dual-band devices to see if they are on the opposite phase. If at least one of your other dual-band device LEDs is blinking green, or is bright solid white or blue, the device is on the opposite phase.

 

Those instructions don't make a lot of sense since the LEDs are a single color. Not sure if you can provide any illuminating information here.

 

Thanks for your help and thank you to those who offer their advice here. I am learning quickly and it all seems to be coming together. Baby steps.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello buzzhazzard,

 

I am so very glad you found out the issue with that X10 KPL!

 

I do not know much about SWL DB so I let others who know more chime in.

 

 

1) I have one virtual three-way consisting of a KPL (controls the load) and an ICON dimmer. I have another virtual four-way circuit consisting of a KPL (controls the load) and two ICON dimmers. They are all linked as controllers to their respective virtual circuits. I can control the respective loads locally from all of the switches without problems. From the ISY, if I turn the device that controls the load on or off, it works fine. If I use the ISY to turn the non-load carrying devices On or Off, the load itself does not respond even though the actual device does--that is, I can watch the LEDs on the ICONS cycle on and off with the ISY commands, but the load does not respond. That behavior is consistent with every "slave" switch. Is that normal?

You cannot control KPL buttons from ISY and therefore what you are experiencing is correct. If you want to control a KPL button, you must put it in a scene and then control the scene instead

 

2) The ISY is recognizing an eight key KPL as a six key KPL. I have verified that the KPL is in eight button configuration by following the KPL instructions. In the right hand pane of the Admin Console, the device is listed as a (2486D) KeypadLinc Dimmer 8 Buttons v.36 but in the left hand pane the device is showing up with the main device and four additional nodes. How can I fix that?

Had this problem before. Unfortunately, the solution is a little involved:

1. Remove KPL from ISY, do a factory reset on it, add it back using Start Linking

2. If this fixes the issue, great, if not:

3. Remove KPL from ISY, do a factory reset on it, and then press and hold buttons A and H while for 10 seconds while you turn the KPL on (i.e. push the set button in). This toggles the number of buttons

4. Add it back to ISY using Start Linking

 

In short, ISY does not look at the model number to decide the number of buttons but it actually queries the device capabilites in real time. I think your KPL was somehow programmed as a 6 button KPL in its previous incarnation!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[LeeG]

buzzhazzard

 

1. Controlling a device directly (with Insteon Direct commands) does not control other devices which may be linked to that device as part of a Scene. Normal Insteon behavior. The PLM is the Controller, with say an ICON switch as a Responder. When the ICON switch is turned On/Off directly as a Responder, the ICON switch DOES NOT then become a Controller of its Responders. If you want all the devices in the Scene to react from the PLM turn the Scene On or Off.

 

2. Michel addressed

 

3. Some Dual Band devices (Access Points for example) have a Red/Green LED which changes color and blinks based on RF and 120V coupling combinations. The Dual Band devices that have White/Blue LEDs show conditions based on intensity and blinking.

 

Lee

[Buzzhazz]

buzzhazzard

 

1. Controlling a device directly (with Insteon Direct commands) does not control other devices which may be linked to that device as part of a Scene. Normal Insteon behavior. The PLM is the Controller, with say an ICON switch as a Responder. When the ICON switch is turned On/Off directly as a Responder, the ICON switch DOES NOT then become a Controller of its Responders. If you want all the devices in the Scene to react from the PLM turn the Scene On or Off.

 

2. Michel addressed

 

3. Some Dual Band devices (Access Points for example) have a Red/Green LED which changes color and blinks based on RF and 120V coupling combinations. The Dual Band devices that have White/Blue LEDs show conditions based on intensity and blinking.

 

Lee

 

Lee and Michel

 

Thank you for your advice and detailed explanations.

 

Michel, the factory reset worked (I had previously only tried to reconfigure without doing a reset). It now shows as an 8-button and I have relinked to it it and added back to the scene. Working great.

 

Lee, your explanations make perfect sense. That's exactly the plain talk I needed to read.

 

I have been an X-10 guy since I built my house 7-1/2 years ago and while I had a fairly reliable system, it was still X-10. A number of those devices have failed over the years (also SmartHome, but their Customer Service did right by me), and in addition to this basement project, I will be replacing the old failed (and failing) X-10 devices with Insteon as the budget permits.

 

The ISY-99i, of course, makes it quite simple--and even fun.

 

One question I forgot. I do have a Leviton coupler/repeater installed at the panel for the X-10 system. I replaced it with the SignalLinc yesterday and, as I previously wrote, it helped a LOT. I want to reinstall the Leviton device, however, to continue to augment my X-10 system.

 

I know that X-10 and Insteon operate at different frequencies, but are there any issues with having both devices installed? I would likely wire them in parallel in a device box and then to the single dual-pole 15A breaker that I was using for the Leviton device.

[LeeG]

buzzhazzard

 

Wiring that way should be fine. I don't think code allows multiple wires in the same breaker but that is not what you described.

 

I don't think the X10 coupler will interfere with the Insteon activity but it has been way too many years since I had a house full of X10 to remember for sure. I eventually pulled all my X10 couplers out but I don't remember them causing an Insteon problem when they were installed. I am sure folks with more current X10 Insteon experience can confirm that or knock it down if it is wrong.

 

Lee

[Brian H]

Insteon is 135.65KHz and X10 is 120KHz.

The passive Insteon coupler may not be tuned sharp enough to prevent the Leviton from transmitting both phases back to each other.

 

Some X10 repeaters also miss read the Insteon commands as X10 ones and step on things. Like the early X10 BoosterLincs did.

 

I have a JV Engineering XTB-IIR X10 repeater and it knows enough to leave Insteon Signals alone. It also blasts a greater than ten volt X10 signal back on the power lines.

 

You can always try the Leviton with the Insteon Passive Coupler. It may function fine. I used an X10Pro XPCP passive coupler and it passed Insteon fairly well.

[IndyMike]

Hello buzzhazzard,

 

Sorry the following is rather long and onerous. Whenever I read a post dealing with Boosterlincs I wind up pulling out the podium...

 

Boosterlincs

I'm glad to hear that you picked up on the Boosterlinc interference problem and disabled these devices. These are particularly evil little units in that they ACTIVELY interfere with Insteon communications. They attempt to determine if an Insteon communication is in progress by measuring the signal level prior to the 60Hz Zero crossing. Unfortunately they are often fooled when "distant" Insteon devices attempt to transmit (signal level is below their threshold) and wind up transmitting over the top of the Insteon transmission.

 

Make no mistake - there are no "good" Boosterlincs. Over the years I have tested no less than three "Insteon approved" units and all of them failed.

 

X10 Repeaters

X10 Repeaters are different animals altogether. All X10 communications are sent twice. A repeater will listen to the first communication and verify it's integrity. Assuming it passes the "integrity test", the repeater will synchronously repeat the second half of the message. A Insteon communication will fail the integrity test - thereby eliminating the chance of interference.

 

Leviton Repeater

You mentioned that you were using a Leviton repeater. Is this a HCA02?

 

If so, it is a true repeater and should not interfere with your Insteon system. I used one of these for years alongside my ISY/PLM.

 

The HCA02 does have some known problems dealing with repeat dim/bright sequences from certain controllers. In particular, the X10 CM15a controller has been known to go into a self sustaining "dim" loop when used with the HCA02 - referred to as a "firestorm".

 

Leviton Repeater in parallel with a passive coupler

I encountered problems with the HCA02 unit when using extended code communication and a passive coupler as you have described above. This occurred intermittently when my A/C unit was running. The equivalent circuit was the HCA02 in parallel with the 2406H coupler in parallel with the A/C unit. The effect was a "looping" of the extended code communication (constant X10 activity) until the A/C unit switched off.

 

I believe the above problem occurred because the X10 signal was being coupled both inductively (A/C unit) and in phase (passive coupler) in parallel with the HCA02 (threw it into a tizzy). Whether you encounter the above will likely depend on your home layout (proximity of inductive devices to your coupler/HCA02) and the communication protocol you use.

 

XTB Repeaters

The above is the reason I finally pulled my HCA02 repeater. I've since installed one of Jeff Volp's XTBR plug in repeaters (similar to the XTB-IIR but a plug in unit) and have had no problems. Jeff's units are true repeaters (as described above) and he has taken the time to specifically verify that they do not interact with Insteon communication. He has also added a number of enhancements to prevent the "firestorm events" that can occur with other repeaters. Lastly, these units have high capacity power supplies that are capable of delivering 20 - 32 Vp-p.

 

4816H and 2406H Couplers

Smarthome has marketed two couplers over the past XX years. The 4816H is labeled an X10 coupler while the 2406H is labeled an Insteon coupler. I have both and they are identical. I believe SH simply relabeled the old "X10" coupler as a "2406 Insteon" coupler to eliminate confusion. While not specifically "tuned" to the 131.65 Khz Insteon frequency, these units are close enough to couple signals across the phases. After that, the repeating nature of Insteon takes over.

 

OK. the podium is back in its corner.

[Teken]

IndyMike,

 

I don't recall ever anyone addressing each tech or device so clearly and with so much insight as you have here.

 

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you . . .

 

To the the rest, again thank you for all the critical feed-back and solutions.