Icon turns on but not off consistently

[swbrains]

Hi,

 

I have two icon switches in my garage. Each is hardwired to a different light fixture. In ISY I have a scene called Garage Lights that includes both icon switches as controllers and responders for the scene. If I press either switch physically, both lights come on or off, although there is a slight delay from one light response to the other sometimes.

 

If I use the ISY to send an "on" command to the scene, it turns both lights on consistently fine.

 

If I use the ISY to send an "off" command to the scene, however, it almost always turns off just one of the lights. The other stays on almost every time. If I send the scene's off command again, most times there is no response. After a few moments, sometimes the scene off command will turn off the light that stays on as well (maybe 10% of the time).

 

The strange part is that the on command always turns both lights on consistently. It's only the off command that consistently leaves one light on.

 

Again, using the physical switches turns both on and off consistently fine.

 

I've tried removing the devices from the scene and re-adding them, but the problem persists. I'm using version 2.8.13 on the ISY-99i/Pro. the two garage light switches *are* on different phases, but I *do* have an Insteon 4-wire phase coupler on my electric dryer that is less than a year old. No other scenes or devices seem to have problems in the house.

 

Any ideas what else I can try to get the ISY to consistently turn them both off at once?

 

Thanks!

[Brian H]

Icon dimmer or relay switch?

 

What type of load is on them. Incandescent; fluorescent?

 

Could be noise from the light when On. Causing problems.

 

Could also be a poor signals to that area as you feel that one set of lights is on each phase.

[LeeG]

If I press either switch physically, both lights come on or off, although there is a slight delay from one light response to the other sometimes.

This is a clear indication of powerline problems in that area. The delay is the result of the Responder device not reacting to the initial Group Broadcast message, reacting to the follow up Group Cleanup. Until this is resolved the ISY Scene control will not be reliable.

 

As Brian has already asked, what type of load is controlled by each switch? If simple incandescent then it is likely a need to couple the phases . It sounds more likely the problem is the type of load since they consistently react to a Scene On (when the load is Off) but consistently fail to respond to a Scene Off (when the load is On).

[swbrains]

Thanks fo the replies.

 

The switches are Icon relays, not dimmers.

 

As I mentioned, the phases are already coupled using an Insteon dryer plug-in 4-wire coupler, although I've already prewired a new double-pole breaker and I'm waiting for a wired-in coupler for near the service panel (at which time I'll remove the dryer coupler). But I know when I installed the dryer coupler last year, it absolutely solved a problem between two linked switches in the kitchen, so I'm fairly certain it does work and I'm thinking it's not a coupling problem particularly since ON always works great.

 

I think you guys hit it on the head with load interference. Both lights are flourescent fixtures which was why I went with the Icon relays so they'd only have on/off settings and no dimming. And it makes a lot of sense -- the part about only having interference with the load on and not off. The symptoms seem to match that potential cause quite nicely.

 

So, is there any type of "filter" for flourescent loads to avoid the "noise" on the line or are flourescent loads simply not reliable on Insteon installations?

 

Thanks again...

-- Vinnie

[LeeG]

swbrains

 

There are wired inline filters. I’ll see what I can find on the Smarthome forum. I have fluorescents in my workshop controlled by an ICON relay for many years. Routinely controlled from a KPL button on the first floor. Never had a noise problem. Just depends on the fluorescent fixture.

 

EDIT: a search of the Smarthome forum indicates inline X10 filters also work for Insteon since the frequencies are so close. Cannot confirm that but it seems likely. Smarthome has a number of inline filters.

 

Lee

[swbrains]

Thanks Lee.

 

What do you think it means (if anything) that when I press either actual switch it works (on and off) every time, but when I send the info via MobilLinc it won't turn both off? Does it work from the switch because they are linked within the actual switches and it doesn't need the ISY at that point, but sending the instruction via the ISY (as part of a scene control) it uses the ISY? I'm just wondering if the fact that it works consistently when pressing the actual switches tells us anything to narrow it down.

 

Thanks again for the insights and the filter information. Although if your flourescents work with Icon switches, I'm thinking maybe there's something else going on here. I guess I could always switch my lights out to incandescent fixtures...

[LeeG]

Fluorescents are like CFLs. Some work fine with Insteon, others generate enough interference to have an adverse affect on powerline signals. Powerline interference is generally not an all or nothing situation. It makes things intermittent rather than an absolute failure.

 

I know nothing about MobilLinc. Assuming it is turning an ISY Scene On and Off, it would be the same as using the Admin Console to control an ISY Scene. The Insteon messages an Insteon device sends to another Insteon device are different than what the ISY issues to control a Scene. An Insteon paddle press sends a Group Broadcast message which all linked responders normally respond to at the same time. That is followed by a Group Cleanup message to every linked responder device. The Group Cleanup must be ACKed by the responder, otherwise the controller device (where the paddle is pressed) will retry the Group Cleanup message multiple times. Between the Group Broadcast message and multiple Group Cleanup messages (all from a single paddle press) a responder will generally get one of those messages and react.

 

The ISY Scene control issues a Group Broadcast message only. This allows an ISY Program to issue subsequent Insteon commands without concern for the ISY PLM being busy with a previous command. Without this approach ISY Programs would require Waits to prevent PLM conflicts which do not exist today. This difference is only evident when the powerline has some interference, either from noise or signal attenuation.

 

I would try an X10 inline filter on one of the Florescent fixtures. If that works add another filter to the other fixture. I like the Fluorescents in my workshop. If they had been an issue I would find a way to filter them rather than move to incandescent.

 

EDIT: there is another difference. The ISY PLM is likely further away then the two switches in the garage. Messages from the ISY PLM are likely not to have as much signal strength do to that distance. If the garage is within RF range, an Access Point in the garage might improve distant communication. My detached garage is more than 300 wire feet from the house. I have no communication problems between the house and the garage with no Access Points in the garage. I also have a FilterLinc on all the PC and UPS equipment where the ISY PLM is plugged. That insures that the Insteon signal leaving the ISY PLM is not attenuated from the start.

[apostolakisl]

I have a noisy low voltage halogen transformer that behaved similarly. An x10 filter solved the problem. The x10 ones are very cheap. Or you could look at different ballasts for your lights. Also, it might be just one of the two lights has a bad ballast. Trying using your ISY to turn them on/off independently and see if only one of them gives you a problem.

[swbrains]

Since the problem occurred turning just the one fixture off, I ended up taking a chance and replacing only the ballast in the troubled fixture. I picked up an electronic ballast from Home Depot and that solved it -- now that light responds consistently to off commands via the ISY every time.

 

Thanks everyone!