dnl Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 Yesterday my ISY stopped receiving status reports from a 2420 motion sensor. Displays of both motion and dawn/dusk status were blank. Low battery indicator showed as OFF. I pressed the setup button in the MS and immediately the ISY showed motion status. A few hours later there was an update of dawn/dusk status. Has anyone had similar problems? Any way to recover without retrieving the MS to press the set button? All ISY programs that checked for MS status executed as if MS status was OFF. Is there any way to detect when status is blank (undefined) rather than ON or OFF?
LeeG Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 dnl The ISY would remember the last Motion Sensor status even if the Motion Sensor stops sending motion messages. For motion and dusk/dawn to be blank it sounds like the ISY was rebooted, perhaps due to a power interruption. Because the Motion Sensor is asleep it cannot be queried for status after an ISY power cycle so the motion and dusk/dawn will be blank until the motion sensor sends messages for either of those conditions. The battery in the motion sensor could be low or something is interfering with RF messages. The Dual Band device the motion sensor normally communicates through could be unplugged or lost power if a wired device. Once the Motion Sensor signals battery low it does not constantly repeat the message. When the ISY was restarted and lost current motion sensor statue it would have lost any low battery indication as well (I think). The low battery node is set to Off after an ISY restart. Lee
dnl Posted April 2, 2011 Author Posted April 2, 2011 Hi LeeG, Thanks for the reply. The ISY did reboot because of loss of power. I rewired the closet where the ISY is kept so both ISY and the PLM had power down/up cycles. The wireless access point that the MS talks to did not cycle. After the reboot I noticed the MS status was blank and I was not concerned at first but I did become concerned later when subsequent motion did not trigger an ON status. There was no motion for almost an hour (much more than the countdown period) and subsequent motion did not cause the ISY to see an ON status. I looked into the log and discovered there had been no motion sensor status messages for at least a day prior to my rewiring. I went to the MS, pulled it down and noticed the LED was not blinking with any motion. I pressed the set button, the ISY reported ON and the MS LED blinked as normal. As best I can tell, the MS stopped working yesterday but I did not notice it until today after the reboot. The low-battery indicator is OFF, meaning the battery is OK. I never tried this before but queried the battery-low indicator from the ISY (while the MS was otherwise inoperatvie) and the ISY appeared to receive a status update. (I was surprised that the query worked because I would not expect any query would work while the MS is asleep.) In any case, the successful query explains why I had battery-low status but not motion or dawn/dusk status. To sum up, I do not think the reboot caused any problem with the MS. I think it only helped me discover the problem. So I wonder if anyone else has had a MS stop working and, if so, do they know how to recover from it other than pressing the set button. Also, in those rare cases where status is blank, is there a way to detect this condition? It appears there is no way for a program to distinguish between blank status and OFF status.
LeeG Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 dnl I agree completely that the reboot did not cause the motion sensor to stop sending motion messages. The reboot only explains why the motion and dusk/dawn status was blank. The low battery Off status does not indicate the state of the battery in this scenario nor does the Query. The ISY sets the low battery status to Off when it reboots. I could be many months before a motion sensor sends a low battery message so instead of leaving the low battery node blank for months it is initialized to Off during reboot. The motion sensor is asleep under most circumstances. The ISY understands a motion sensor device is asleep and will not actually issue the Query command as it is expected to fail. Should a motion sensor actually send a low battery message the method used to reset the low battery node from On to Off status is to select Query. Selecting Query simply resets the low battery node to Off without ever actually communicating with the motion sensor. Otherwise there would be no way to reset the low battery node from On to Off without rebooting the ISY. A motion sensor does not send a low battery Off message when a fresh battery is installed. The lack of actual device communication with Query can be confirmed by running the Event Viewer with Device communications events selected and click on Query. No Query command is actually sent to the motion sensor. The ISY simply marks the low battery node Off without communicating with the motion sensor. I would replace the battery in the motion sensor. Once it has sent the low battery message when the battery voltage drops below a certain threshold it does not send any more low battery messages. The low battery On status was lost when the ISY was rebooted. A search of the various forums will show a motion sensor will stop sending motion messages when the battery gets too low and they have been known to flood the system with false motion messages under the same conditions. Lee EDIT: another means of verifying the low battery node Off does not really reflect the condition of the battery, remove the battery from the motion sensor. Reboot the ISY, the low battery node will display Off even though the sensor and dusk/dawn nodes are blank. Click on Query, the low battery node will indicate Off. Obviously the low battery node Off status did not come from the motion sensor with the battery removed.
Michel Kohanim Posted April 3, 2011 Posted April 3, 2011 dnl and LeeG, I am wondering whether or not Motion Sensors have the same problem as Thermostat dongles. Do you have any thermostats and do they ever lock up? With kind regards, Michel
LeeG Posted April 3, 2011 Posted April 3, 2011 Michel I would like to try the Venstar but am holding off until that issue is resolved. I don't think the motion sensor was hung up due to a firmware issue. RF communication could have been block because of a tstat flooding the RF spectrum but it is not clear that is what is creating the tstat problems. There was one user who reported a linking issue with a motion sensor that was resolved by unplugging the tstat dongle. That sounded like the dongle was interfering with RF communication in general. It would take multiple users reporting RF problems solved by unplugging the dongle before I would give that conclusion much merit. Too often a particular solution is given attribution for solving a symptom when something else actually changed at the same time. Like a rooster crowing causes the sun to rise. Often happens that way but not causal. Dongle RF interference is an interesting theory though and should be watched. One of those diagnostic tools (unplugging the dongle) that can be tried when RF communications is suspect. Lee
oskrypuch Posted April 3, 2011 Posted April 3, 2011 With the discovery and recovery programs I'm using now, the Venstar lockup is essentially a non-issue. I am running three Venstars. That said, I do look forward to it being properly fixed. (firmware) * Orest
dnl Posted April 4, 2011 Author Posted April 4, 2011 Hi LeeG, You mentioned a low battery. Do you think I may have a low battery because the MS stopped working or because of something I wrote? If it is from something I wrote, then I should clarify I had no reason to suspect a low battery. The MS is working OK now. I checked the battery's voltage while in the MS and it is a little higher than 8.5V. I seem to recall someone on the forum did some testing and concluded the MS can work on voltages below 8V. Do you have a different experience or has there been some misunderstanding about whether I have low battery?
LeeG Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 I assumed low battery when it stopped working. Particularly when the LED did not blink when motion should have been detected. That voltage should be fine if it is sustained when the motion sensor is active. Static reading with the motion sensor sleeping is not a good indication of battery condition. Put the motion sensor into linking mode and run Show Device Links Table. If the voltage remains at 8 battery is fine.
dnl Posted April 4, 2011 Author Posted April 4, 2011 Thanks for the reply. The voltage is above 8.4 V when in linking mode while reading the device table. I looked at the log file again. The log records look normal up to Friday morning, Mar 25. Then the log looks something like this (DD=dawn/dusk; MS=motion): MS multi Fri, Mar 25, multiple (looks normal) DD 0% Fri, Mar 25, 9:27 AM MS 100% Fri, Mar 25, 9:31 AM MS 0% Sat, Mar 26, 11:59 PM MS multi Sun, Mar 27, multiple (looks normal) DD 0% Sun, Mar 27, 8:47 AM MS multi Sun, Mar 27, multiple (looks normal) DD 100% Sun, Mar 27, 7:20 PM MS multi Sun, Mar 27, multiple (looks normal) MS 0% Sun, Mar 27, 7:17 PM MS 0% Tue, Mar 29, 6:24 PM DD 100% Tue, Mar 29, 6:52 PM DD 0% Wed, Mar 30, 7:51 AM DD 100% Wed, Mar 30, 5:58 PM DD 0% Thu, Mar 31, 8:34 AM MS 100% Thu, Mar 31, 6:35 PM <-- reset by pressing set button all appears normal It appears both MS and DD stopped working Friday morning, Mar 25 until the one MS entry at midnight Sat, Mar 26. Both appear to start working on Sunday morning, Mar 27. Then stop working Sunday evening until Tuesday night. Only DD on Wednesday and Thursday AM, Mar 30-31. Only motion Thurs night. Nothing more until Friday when I reset the device. Marginal RF communication? Maybe but the MS and WAP are about 25 feet apart with clear line of sight between them. In any case, the problem was solved by pressing the MS set button. Nothing else was changed. I would appreciate any thoughts about what might have caused this.
LeeG Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 I went to the MS, pulled it down and noticed the LED was not blinking with any motion. It is all within the motion sensor if the LED does not blink when motion is sensed. No RF considerations, no ISY considerations. Is it V1 or V2 motion sensor? Is it hardware configured ( no jumper 5 if V2) or software/firmware configured (jumper 5 if V2)?
dnl Posted April 4, 2011 Author Posted April 4, 2011 Is it V1 or V2 motion sensor?Is it hardware configured ( no jumper 5 if V2) or software/firmware configured (jumper 5 if V2)? It is version 2 with jumper 5 set for configuration by software.
LeeG Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 If it continues to stop sensing motion I would discuss with Smarthome support. A V2 motion sensor should be with the normal Insteon warranty. I just checked and realized for the first time the motion sensor warranty is 1 year rather than the normal 2 year.
dnl Posted April 4, 2011 Author Posted April 4, 2011 Good advice. The MS just quit working again so it's time for a call to SmartHome. Thanks your your comments.
Avonlea22 Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 dnl and LeeG, I am wondering whether or not Motion Sensors have the same problem as Thermostat dongles. Do you have any thermostats and do they ever lock up? With kind regards, Michel I have a motion sensor that stopped working the same day that my thermostat lost communication with my ISY. This is the very first time (after three months of having it installed) that my thermostat has lost communication. I also have a couple of switchlincs that seemed to have lost communication as well. Haven't had time to troubleshoot yet, though.
Michel Kohanim Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Hello Brian, Thanks so very much. Next time this happens, would you be kind enough to remove the thermostat dongle and see whether or not the problem goes away? Thanks and with kind regards, Michel
Avonlea22 Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 I just removed the thermostat dongle and now the motion sensor works. It did not work prior to removing the dongle. They seem to be related, at least in my case. This certainly explains why I couldn't get a new motion sensor to link a few days ago, after working at it for almost 45 minutes. I'll try tomorrow to see if this new sensor links. Off to work right now.
LeeG Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Avonlea22 It’s becoming clear from the number of users with the same experience that the thermostat dongle is interfering with communication of other RF devices. It gives the appearance of the dongle RF transmitter being left on. Don't think the dongle is actually transmitting redundant messages as no one has reported seeing this in the event viewer. Just leaving the RF transmitter on even without sending an actual message will block other RF devices. Like holding down the talk button on a microphone without saying anything. As long as the button is hold down no other RF devices can transmit or receive their messages. Let’s hope Smartlabs comes up with a solution soon. Lee
sanders2222 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 My motion detectors (2) failed within a week or two of each other. I did not get a low battery indication, and there has been a lot if ink spilled on that subject: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=2896&highlight=2420 What I discovered is programs that were triggered by motion detectors either stopped working or were very erratic and my entire system became unstable. It seemed I was getting weird behavior from programs not related to the motion detectors. Replacing the batteries fixed the problems and restored the stability. A couple of notes I thought I'd share are: 1. I installed my detectors in November, 2009. So I think battery life was pretty reasonable. EDIT this was the first time I changed the batteries. 2. I added a 'Repeat every 12 hours' to my notifications related to the motion detectors. This was after I left my house for dinner and while my house was in the 'Away' mode, I started receiving emails every 30 seconds or so from my house. I had to turn my phone off! When I got home, I had over 100 repeating text messages to delete. UGH!3. Communication or function of my Venstar thermostat was not effected. May the fourth be with you!
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