Can't bridge phases with SignaLinc hardwired phase coupler

[srodgers]

Hi. I'm new to this forum. I've been using Insteon devices in my condominium for the past 5 years, bridging the two phases of my electrical system with the old plug-in Signal Enhancers (#2442). I recently bought the ISY-99i. When I hooked it up, it would only communicate with devices on the same phase as the PLM (#2412S). After discussing the problem with someone at Universal Devices and reading this forum, I realized that the old plug-in Signal Enhancers do not support communication with the ISY-99i. I decided to install the SignaLinc V2 hardwired phase coupler (#2406H). This is where the mystery begins. Neither the ISY-99i nor any of my Insteon devices can communicate across the hardwired bridge. All communication (between devices or between the ISY-99i and various devices) on one phase seems perfect. But, no signals are crossing to the opposite phase.

 

The SignaLinc hardwired bridge is connected to a ganged 20A GE circuit breaker. The two hot wires coming out of the circuit breaker each carry 110V and connect to the black and red wires on the hardwired bridge. There are 240V across the two wires (actually, my multimeter reads 200V ?). I have been on the phone twice with SmartHome but have not found the solution. I have tried the following:

 

1. Faulty SignaLinc device. Smarthome was nice enough to ship me a second SignaLinc device free of charge. The new bridge behaves exactly like the first one, and there is no change in the system.

 

2. Problem with circuit breaker or position in breaker box. I have re-wired the bridge to two single 15A breakers and placed them in different locations within the breaker box, ensuring that the two wires are coming off opposite phases. There is no change in the system.

 

3. Interference from other electrical equipment. I have tried turning off all surge suppressors and all electronic equipment (eg TV, stereo amplifier). I also cut off all breakers in the box, except for the hardwired bridge and two test circuits (on opposite phases) for Insteon devices. The devices were still unable to communicate.

 

I know that I could simply use two Access Points or two dual-band devices. However, everything I read indicates that the hardwired bridge provides more reliable communication. And, now I'm determined to make this work. I have a couple of thoughts/suspicions but no way to test them. a) The power company recently installed new "smart" meters for each unit in the building. These look like normal meters (glass dome with digital displays inside) but can report power usage online. Could this fancy meter interfere with the signal bridging? Is there any significance to the fact that my multimeter reads 200V across the phases rather than 240V?

 

I appreciate any help with this problem.

 

-Steven.

[LeeG]

There must be 220/240 volts AC across the two legs. Is there 220/240 volts AC at the circuit breakers? Either the meter is defective or perhaps you have two legs of a 3 phase system which would put the voltage somewhere around 208V (if memory is correct). Have not been around a 3 phase system for more than 25 years so the 208 number could be off.

 

If the condo is using 2 legs of a 3 phase system a passive wired coupler will not work because of the phase shift. Smarthome does not support a 3 phase system although there is discussion that it might work. I would try a pair of Access Points.

[srodgers]

Thanks for your reply, LeeG. I just checked the main lugs on my breaker box, and my multimeter reads exactly 200V across the 2 phases. My meter is fairly old and could be inaccurate. But, I'm wondering if you may be correct about the 3-phase system. Other than the voltage, is there some way I can check whether or not I have a 3-phase system? I know nothing about this. My breaker box simply has two large black wires coming in from the top, connecting to the two bus bars.

[LeeG]

If you have a dual trace oscilloscope the phase shift will be visible. Have to be very careful when working around the power panel. Stay away from the main lugs. Any short up there could draw 200 amps. Easily fatal or fire hazard if mistake made in that area. Measure at the load side of the 240V breaker. Still potentially fatal but the breaker will trip if shorted. AC meters have gotten very inexpensive. All the home improvement stores carry basic AC meters in the electrical department for $25. Radio Shack probably has something similar.

 

I expect the electric company would be able to describe what is being supplied. The maintenance man for the condo probably has that information as well. If you are in a community that has 240V AC then the voltage across the 240V breaker must be 240V. Anything substantially less indicates other than the standard single split phase service.

[LeeG]

Actually this is easy to verify. Measure from one side of the 240V breaker to ground. That will be 120V (or 110V). That will verify the accuracy of the volt meter. Measuring across both legs will be double that if a normal single split phase supply. If not double that is the problem. The Smarthome web site does discuss the potential of using Insteon on a 3 phase system. Might work but not supported.

[io_guy]

If your condo is running 3-phase Y (Wye) then you would get 208V L-L and 120V L-N (It comes from 208/Sqrt(3)).

I've never looked into the impact of phase shift on Insteon but typical L-L 240V is 180 degrees, where as the setup above would be 120 degrees. I'd place my money on this killing your signals since the zero crossing is no longer in sync.

 

What do single phase breakers give you from Load to Neutral?

What about each side of the 20A breaker to Neutral?

 

I would:

- Verify the lines I listed above

- Verify your meter is accurate

- Call your power company and ask them your config

 

Without an oscilloscope it would be difficult to determine the phase angle between your lines (aside from the V measurements).

[Brian H]

If your measurements show you are on a three phase feed. I would also doubt a passive coupler is going to work.

Smarthome has reported some users having success with an Active Dual Band device on each phase. Like three Access Points. Not sure about other Dual Band Devices.

http://wiki.smarthome.com/index.php?tit ... stallation

[srodgers]

From load to neutral, the single breakers in my box have 110 or 111V. Each side of my 20A ganged breaker also gives this same measurement. I don't know if this measurement is within the normal range or if my multimeter is reading a little low. I will likely invest in a better meter this weekend.

 

I will check with the maintenance man in my building. He should know if we have a split single-phase system or a 3-phase system. If he doesn't know, I will call the power company.

[LeeG]

The 110V value is likely the correct value. Some areas use 110V, others use 120V. Across the 220/240V breaker the reading should be 220V when each leg is reading 110V (double the value). In a 3 phase supply the AC cycle is not 180 degrees apart which is why the voltage reads in the 200V range rather than the expected 220V. A 3 phase supply would be 208V across the 240V breaker if the base supply was 240V.

 

I’m sure an active coupler is needed. Does not mean it will work but since the old SignaLincs apparently worked the Access Points have a good chance of working as well. The old SignaLincs do not couple Extended I2 commands which is why the ISY is having problems. Most devices now support Extended commands.

[oskrypuch]

So is the hardwired 2604H ...

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2406H/SignaLin ... red/p.aspx

 

an "old" signalinc? I presumed if it was passive, it should couple all signals, but would like to be educated on this.

 

* Orest

[LeeG]

The old SignaLincs with the black antenna was/is an active coupler. It sends/receives on RF powerline signals which is how an Insteon message is moved from one 120V leg to the other. The SignaLinc on the 120V powerline leg that has the original Insteon message transmits the Insteon message over RF. The SignaLinc on the other 120V leg receives the RF message and repeats it on the powerline leg it is plugged into. The SignaLinc is Insteon message aware, sending/receiving only Insteon messages. The problem is the SignaLinc does not send/receive the longer Extended Insteon message. The effect is to have no coupling for Extended Insteon messages when the SignaLinc is used.

 

Back in the days when SignaLincs were the devices used to RF couple, all Insteon messages were Standard short messages. Support for the longer Extended messages was not built into the SignaLincs as no devices used Extended messages at the time. Over the years, after Access Points replaced SignaLincs, more and more devices have moved to Extended Insteon messages for configuration and link management. Some devices, such as the Motion Sensor and TriggerLinc, use only Extended commands for link management. The firmware in these devices does not support the older short Insteon message for link management.

[srodgers]

I have not been able to determine with 100% certainty that my condo building is using (2 legs of) a 3-phase electrical system or a split single-phase system. However, based on the voltages that I'm reading (110V load to neutral; 200V load to load) and the fact that the SignaLinc hardwired bridge absolutely will not work, I have concluded that we do have a 3-phase system. I spoke with our maintenance man, and he is not sure which system we have. He believes that we may have both systems (?), but he's not sure which one goes into the apartments.

 

I would love to confirm things with an oscilloscope, but I can't justify the cost of a dual-channel scope that can handle >240VAC. I use my multimeter all the time, but I can't find any other uses for an oscilloscope. Perhaps I can borrow one in the future, if I find someone who owns such a thing.

 

I have not called the power company. I'm envisioning a huge waste of time on the phone without getting a definite answer. Perhaps I'm wrong.

 

In any case, I have installed two Insteon dual-band devices to act as access points, and my system is working perfectly! The ISY-99i is communicating across the two legs/phases, and this has solved my problem. I expended a lot of time and energy installing the hardwired bridge, but I learned a tremendous amount about my electrical system. I'm going to return the two SignaLince bridges to SmartHome.

 

Thanks to everyone who chimed in. You were very helpful.

 

-Steven.

[Brian H]

The fact that the Line to Line voltage was closer to 208VAC and not 230-240VAC. Would make me think each condo is fed from two of the three phase lines. Maybe each condo uses a different pair of lines to balance the total load to the whole complex.

 

Also the Dual Band Devices fixing the problem also indicates that the passive unit was trying to couple to a three phase system and signals where not in the correct position. Insteon times 800us before the Zero Crossing of the AC. So I would thing timing is everything.

 

Glad to read it is now working for you.