Button Grouping using scenes... How do you do this ?

[denis.cabrol@gmail.com]

Hi,

 

I have about 6 month experience with Isy and 1 year with Insteon. There is one thing that still eludes me... How to create exclusive buttons either through the ISY specific 'button grouping' dialog box or through scenes.

Is there any tutorial on how to do that ? Can't seem to find it anywhere.

My test case is a KPL where I want to set the dimming level to 1 of 4 levels using 4 different keys. I just do not understand how you can turn key 'B' off when I press key 'C' without having to resort to a program.

 

Thanks for your help !

 

Denis

[LeeG]

If a single KeypadLinc is involved the KPL hardware Button Grouping can be used although the ISY recommends against using the feature. How many KPLs are involved? That is, are KPL buttons A,B,C,D (or whatever buttons are being used) to be linked to any other KPL. If so a Program is needed as KPL hardware button grouping only works where the KPL button is physically pressed. It does not apply to other KPLs that may be linked to those buttons.

[denis.cabrol@gmail.com]

Hi Lee,

 

right now just trying to make it work on a single KPL 6 keys. I am trying to make it work through scenes, as recommended by ISY, but I do not understand how it is supposed to be done.

 

Thanks

 

Denis

[LeeG]

Denis

 

There are a number of approaches depending on how many Programs and Scenes you want to produce and manage. Secondary KeypadLinc buttons cannot be turned On/Off with Direct commands, thus the need for Scenes.

 

Lets use KPL Secondary buttons A,B,C,D as exclusive buttons.

 

Scene X has all 4 KPL buttons as Responders. Scene X will be used to turn Off all the related KPL button LEDs.

 

Scene A has KPL button B,C,D as Responders.

Scene B has KPL button A,C,D as Responders.

Scene C has KPL button A,C,D as Responders.

Scene D has KPL button A,B,C as Responders.

 

Program X triggers with Off commands from any of the 4 KPL buttons. The Then clause invokes Scene X with an Off command to turn Off all involved KPL button LEDs.

Program A triggers with an On command from KPL button A. The Then clause invokes Scene A with an Off command to turn Off B,C,D.

Program B triggers with an On command from KPL button B. The Then clause invokes Scene B with an Off command to turn Off A,C,D.

Program C triggers with an On command from KPL button C. The Then clause invokes Scene C with an Off command to turn Off A,B,D.

Program D triggers with an On command from KPL button D. The Then clause invokes Scene D with an Off command to turn Off A,B,C.

 

Lee

[denis.cabrol@gmail.com]

Thanks Lee, that seems to work fine. I had not realized that 'using scenes' as recommended by ISY actually involved programming.

 

Thanks again

Denis

[LeeG]

Scenes are used for device to device control and normally do not require any Programs. Programs are required when special things have to be done as in this case. When a KPL button is pressed On (button LED lights up) an On command is sent. That is what you want for most situations but in this case the other KPL buttons in the "Group" need to be turned Off. Secondary KPL buttons cannot be turned Off with an On command thus a Program is needed to recognize the On command and issue a Scene Off to turn the other KPL buttons Off. The Lights that are being turned On to some bright level can be turned On with a Scene without Program activity. An ISY Scene is created with KPL button A as the Controller and whatever devices to be turned On are defined as Responders with whatever On Level is associated with the KPL button.

 

Many devices can be turned Off with an On command simply by setting the Responder On Level to 0%. Secondary KPL buttons are the exception. They will not turn Off with an On command.

[andyf0]

Scenes are used for device to device control and normally do not require any Programs. Programs are required when special things have to be done as in this case. When a KPL button is pressed On (button LED lights up) an On command is sent. That is what you want for most situations but in this case the other KPL buttons in the "Group" need to be turned Off. Secondary KPL buttons cannot be turned Off with an On command thus a Program is needed to recognize the On command and issue a Scene Off to turn the other KPL buttons Off. The Lights that are being turned On to some bright level can be turned On with a Scene without Program activity. An ISY Scene is created with KPL button A as the Controller and whatever devices to be turned On are defined as Responders with whatever On Level is associated with the KPL button.

 

Many devices can be turned Off with an On command simply by setting the Responder On Level to 0%. Secondary KPL buttons are the exception. They will not turn Off with an On command.

 

 

LeeG,

 

Isn't this exactly what Mutually Exclusive button grouping is for? From the Wiki:

 

What are Mutually Exclusive Buttons

 

Mutually Exclusive Buttons, as the name implies are "grouping" of buttons such that one and only one button can be "ON" at any one time. This grouping is very useful for cases where you have the same set of devices controlled by multiple a Keypadlinc buttons, from the same Keypadlinc, each one of which impacts the scene differently. Here are some examples of what this feature might be used for.

 

 

 

Low, Medium, High, and Off Fan Speed Buttons

Party, Romantic, Dinner, Lunch, and Breakfast Buttons

 

I think it says that when you push one of the buttons, the others go OFF. The ISY has a setup where you can choose which buttons are mutually exclusive.

[LeeG]

Hi Andy

 

You are right on! The KPL hardware that supports mutually exclusive buttons (button grouping) does exactly that. Turning one button in the group on turns any of the other buttons in the group off. This works only on the KPL where the button is physically pressed. If multiple KPLs are linked together only the KPL where the button is pressed will be mutually exclusive. KPLs linked as Responders will accumulate lighted button LEDs even if the Responder KPL has defined the same button grouping.

 

I tested button grouping on a single KPL under 3.1.4 and it worked fine. Not sure why the ISY recommends not using the feature but I am sure that is from past experience. Perhaps because it works only for a single KPL and often multiple KPLs are involved. Might also present a problem in keeping track of button status as turning On a button also results in turning one Off which would require looking at the button grouping information for each KPL command received. Do not know why the button grouping popup recommends not using the function.

 

As I wrote the above I realized I had not watched button status under Admin Console. Button status does not follow button grouping. Since the KPL only indicates that a button has turned On, and says nothing about another button turning Off as a result of button grouping, button status under the Admin Console and therefore Program Status is not accurate. The only way the ISY could compensate for this is to search through the KPL configuration. That would be time consuming for every command received from the KPL.

 

Lee

[andyf0]

Ah! Thanks for the explanation. The mutually exclusive feature is really only suitable for device to device linking then. Using an ISY with programs could get the whole system confused. Interesting the other buttons don't send an OFF. That's probably why UDI doesn't recommend using the feature with an ISY. It's useful for an installer setting up a house with an ISY then removing it when he left though.