Scenes paradigm

[klundy]

Hi all - i think I need a sanity check or a kick in the right direction. I've read through a lot of the forum as well as the wiki. I suspect the answer is there, but I have confused myself.

 

Background - I've got 40 something Insteon devices. Lots of direct controller/responder links. I had been using Houselinc. I bought the ISY several months ago, installed it and then got busy with work. I'm back to having some free time. I upgraded to the latest beta (why start with the old)

 

I don't recall how all the devices and scenes got into the ISY, but they are all there and I know I didn't do it manually.

 

A simple example that leads to my confusion:

I have 2 sets of front lights, each on a toggle linc.

On a KPL in another room, I linked a button as a controller for both toggles. I also set the toggles as controllers of that button so the button comes on if either toggle is on.

 

When the ISY did it's crawl, it created 2 scenes - one for each toggle linc.

 

So I decide I was going to create a rule (involving garage door and light status, etc). I was thinking that rather than controlling both toggles and KPL button individually within the rule, I should create a single scene (e.g. "all front lights"). That would also let me re-use the scene in other rules if appropriate.

 

I create the scene, drag and drop the devices and the ISY complains (something to the effect that those are already controller/responders). I let it create anyway, but it now lists all 3 devices in blue.

 

I fully expect to have a "doh" moment when someone answers. I expected to be able to have multiple scenes with re-used controller/responders. E.g. Porch lights=toggleA and KPL button. Garage lights=toggleB and KPL button. All front lights=toggleA, toggleB and KPL button.

 

So with the ISY, should I be doing those 3 scenes independantly? Or the 2 individual scenes within the ALL scene? Do I need to think of ISY scenes any different from Insteon or HL scenes? Or maybe it's because the ISY is reusing scenes either from the devices themselves or the HL PLM and I need to nuke all links/scenes and start clean with the ISY? I'm hesitant to go that route as all the direct control links of devices are working the way I want (and importantly the way my wife accepts )

 

Thanks for reading this far and I hope my rambling makes sense.

Kevin

[LeeG]

klundy

 

Any given Controller device can be a Controller of only one Scene. This is an Insteon architecture design point. Insteon does not support Scene A controlling Scene B. So using those requirements the simplest way to define the interrelationship between the KPL button and the ToggleLincs is a single ISY Scene with the KPL button and both ToggleLincs as Controllers of the single ISY Scene. The ISY assumes a Controller device of a Scene is also a Responder device in the Scene (assuming the device has Responder capability).

 

Under the covers the ISY cross-links all three devices such that pressing the KPL button or either ToggleLinc will cause all three devices to react in sync.

 

This may require deleting some of the Scenes which were automatically created (and assigned numbers) when devices were added to the ISY with the option to keep existing links. Must have used that option if Scenes were not explicitly created using the ISY.

 

EDIT: from Insteon’s point of view the result is three Insteon Scenes. One Scene is the KPL button as Controller with both ToggleLincs as Responders. Another Insteon Scene is ToggleLinc1 as Controller with ToggleLinc2 and the KPL button as Responders. The last Insteon Scene is ToggleLinc2 as Controller with ToggleLinc1 and the KPL button as Responders.

 

Devices can be Responders in many Scenes but they can be a Controller of only 1 Scene.

 

For the most part it is not necessary to think about what the ISY is doing under the covers. Coming from HL2 it may help understand what is actually happening when an ISY Scene has multiple Controllers. Actually a very simple way of defining cross-linked devices once you get use to it.

 

Lee

[klundy]

Thanks Lee. I'm still thinking about your response ... I'm not sure yet, but I think you highlighted that I was creating a problem when there was no problem, and that was my problem

 

Kevin

[klundy]

Obviously, something is not clicking ...

 

I created a scene with 2 toggle links and 1 button on a KPL: New Scene, drag and drop the 2 toggles and button.

 

I noticed intermittent behaviour in my rule. So I just tried turning the scene on and off from within the ISY console. I did that 10 times. It fully worked 3 times, 1 time it just turned on the button, and 6 times nothing happened.

 

That makes me think it is just a communication issue. So I then go to the individual devices within the ISY console. I turned them each on/off at least 20 times. 100%. No issues at all. That seems to indicate communication is fine.

 

I also assume I created the scene correctly, otherwise it wouldn't have worked those 3 times.

 

This is not making any sense to me.

Kevin

[LeeG]

klundy

 

There is an inherent difference between a Scene On/Off and an individual device On/Off. The device On/Off is accomplished with an Insteon Direct command which has automatic command retry built into it. The Scene On/Off uses a Scene (Group) command which does not have automatic command retry built into it. Any deficiency in powerline reliability will be observed with Scene commands before being observed with individual device commands.

 

Lee

[klundy]

Aha! That was a bit of information I did not know, and very possibly explains the behaviour. When I have time, I'l have to capture some data to see if there are retransmissions.

 

The other thing that dawned on me, I still have my HL2 PLM plugged in, with HL2 shut down. I see another thread where you are helping someone remove the HL2 PLM. I'll read that and follow that advice as well. (That PLM is behind a heavy file cabinet, so I'vee been lazy about unplugging in)

 

Thanks again for your help Lee.

Kevin