Strange INSTEON Communication Issue

[FredT]

I am stuck on a very strange communication problem I’ve encountered while migrating my home automation system from X10 to Insteon. I have talked with experts at SmartHome and UD for hours. First some background.

 

I have been using X10 automation to control lighting and HVAC since forever. Automation was through the old Powerhouse Control Interface using software I’ve written (first in C, then later VB). I finally decided it was time to move to the 21st century. After studying the technology I decided to use Insteon technology controlled by an ISY-99i.

 

I purchased a number of relay and dimmer switches (two of which are dual-band), a Venstar T1700 thermostat with Insteon Adapter, a RemoteLinc2, and an ISY-99i with dual-band PLM.

 

I started by installing the wall switches and ISY. I was careful to put the two dual-band switches on opposite phases. At first all appeared to go smoothly.

Things started to go downhill when I tried to link the Thermostat Adapter into the system… It just wouldn’t take. After spending a couple hours on the phone with SmartHome tech support we decided there was a communication issue getting to the Thermostat Adapter, even though it was on an opposite wall, 15 feet and clear line-of-sight from a dual-band wall unit. We tried both tap and manual linking without success. It was during this session that I upgraded ISY firmware from V2 to V3.1.10 (which went smoothly). Strangely, I was able to link the RemoteLinc2 to the Thermostat Adapter, but not to the ISY. The upshot from this session was to replace the Thermostat Adapter and PLM with new units.

 

I continued to experiment while waiting for the replacement units to arrive. One experiment was to plug the PLM into an extension cord and longer patch cable so I could physically move the unit around my home and plug it into different VAC circuits. About the best I was able to achieve was partial linking where the four devices corresponding to the Thermostat Adapter show in the device panel, but linking ultimately failed before completing the link. Even this partial success was haphazard and couldn’t be reliably repeated.

 

Another round of experiments dealt with the hardwired X10 bridge previously wired into opposing phases at my electrical service many years ago to facilitate X10 automation. Knowing that the two dual-band wall switches and the dual-band PLM more than adequate to bridge phases through RF, I thought the hardwired bridge might somehow cause interference. To my surprise, the ISY could not control devices that were on the opposite phase when I disabled the hardwired bridge. Yet, I had crosslinked a pair of oppositely phased switches to control an overhead light. Either of these switches could control the light and level changes on one were instantly reflected on the LED readout of the other with the X10 bridge disabled.

 

I also experimented with the RemoteLinc2. I was able to link it to the Thermostat Adapter and a variety of wall switches without ever a problem. And it works reliably (except to the Thermostat) from almost any place in the home. I have encountered an infrequent problem using the RemoteLinc2 to control the Thermostat; sometimes the Thermostat won’t respond even with the remote just a few feet (or even inches) from the thermostat. But after pressing one of the Thermostat’s buttons, it seems to wake up and then reliably responds to remote commands sent from the RemoteLinc2. I perceive this as a tangential problem, probably not related to my main issue.

 

Still, I was never able to link the RemoteLinc2 to the ISY having tried tap and manual linking several times.

 

Finally the replacement PLM and Thermostat Adapters arrived. But replacing them made absolutely no difference. Things worked and didn’t work just as before. Hour sessions techs from SmartHome and Universal Devices shed no clues. (I have to say both techs were patient, knowledgeable, and just a baffled as me.

 

It seems to me that for some mysterious and unknown reason, commands issued by the ISY through the PLM do not make it to the RF band. The facts that I cannot link the ISY to neither the Thermostat Adapter nor RemoteLinc2 and require my X10 hardwired bridge for ISY-issued commands to cross phases support this conclusion. Yet the facts that my RemoteLinc2 works reliably with most devices and device-to-device communication works cross-phase with the X10 bridge disabled seem to rule-out RF interference as the root cause.

 

It is as if commands sent by the ISY or PLM are somehow coded to prevent band hoping, but I don’t think there is support by the protocol.

 

Help, I am at wit’s end.

 

…Fred

[LeeG]

FredT

 

First there are no easy answers/fixes to problems like this. It often requires more than one change to resolve something like this.

 

If there are any X10 devices with BoosterLinc enabled, disable the feature. It interferes with Insteon. Insteon devices do not couple X10 so the X10 bridge will be needed. Is that a passive X10 coupler? Active X10 coupler/amplifiers some time interfere with Insteon. The fact that the X10 bridge improves cross phase communication suggests the in wall Dual Band devices are not coupling well in the present location. That is another reason why I much prefer Access Points mentioned next.

 

In wall Dual Band devices seem not to have the range of Access Points. I suggest a pair of Access Points for coupling. They plug in making it easy to move them around to achieve coupling and good RF reception.

 

What is on the circuit with the ISY PLM? Any UPS and/or computer equipment? If so isolate them with a FilterLinc particularly if using a UPS. Some cell phone chargers, flat screen TVs, CFLs, and other appliances/devices can put enough interference on the powerline to cause problems.

 

A slow tedious procedure to locate devices that are interfering with powerline communication is to turn Off all but the key circuit breakers powering the ISY/PLM, computer (isolated with FilterLinc) and one circuit with Insteon installed. It should be on the same phase as the ISY/PLM at this point. If this works turn On breakers one at a time until reliability drops off. Identify the device/appliance causing the problem and isolate with a FilterLinc or replace CFLs, etc.

 

Just some suggestions for things to try. I am sure other folks will have additional items they have encountered. The thing to keep in mind is when the issues are located and resolved Insteon works even though it may not seem that way now.

 

Lee

[Brian H]

The RemoteLinc2 is only supported in the latest Beta version of ISY99i firmware.

3.1.10 and you have to pick the Remotelinc2 from the drop down list of choices {there are three pick the correct one}. Then put the RemoteLinc2 in the linking mode by holding the set button until the green led flashes.

[FredT]

If there are any X10 devices with BoosterLinc enabled, disable the feature.

All X10 devices have been removed.

 

Is that a passive X10 coupler?

It is a passive coupler and is at least 20 years old.

 

The fact that the X10 bridge improves cross phase communication suggests the in wall Dual Band devices are not coupling well in the present location.

Agreed, except they do couple the two dimmer switches that are cross phase.

 

In wall Dual Band devices seem not to have the range of Access Points. I suggest a pair of Access Points for coupling. They plug in making it easy to move them around to achieve coupling and good RF reception.

Good advice. Right now I have two PLMs as I haven't cross-shipped the replaced unit. I assume these units provide Access Point functionality and would allow me to experiment now. Am I correct?

 

What is on the circuit with the ISY PLM? Any UPS and/or computer equipment?

The PLM presently on a circuit it shares with just the furnace. I have moved it to other circuits without noticing a difference, but will continue to experiment.

 

The ISY is physically inches from my LinkSys WRT54G. Both are powered thru the same surge surpressor. I will experiment with ISY placment.

 

A slow tedious procedure to locate devices that are interfering with powerline communication is to turn Off all but the key circuit breakers powering the ISY/PLM, computer (isolated with FilterLinc) and one circuit with Insteon installed.

This is the route I intend to take.

 

The thing to keep in mind is when the issues are located and resolved Insteon works even though it may not seem that way now.Thanks for the encouragment. I have a sizable investment (both time and money) in my INSTEON conversion and the X10 equipment it replaces has work so well for so long. I so much want it to work.

 

...Fred

[FredT]

The RemoteLinc2 is only supported in the latest Beta version of ISY99i firmware.

3.1.10 and you have to pick the Remotelinc2 from the drop down list of choices {there are three pick the correct one}. Then put the RemoteLinc2 in the linking mode by holding the set button until the green led flashes.

I have the latest beta and have tried exactly this proceedure.

 

...Fred

[LeeG]

"Right now I have two PLMs as I haven't cross-shipped the replaced unit. I assume these units provide Access Point functionality and would allow me to experiment now. Am I correct?"

 

Depends on which PLM. 2413 is Dual Band, 2412 is not.

[IndyMike]

Hello Fred,

 

Let me start by saying that I agree with everything that Lee and Brian have posted. I'd would, however, like to add information on passive couplers.

 

Passive couplers come in a number of different configurations:

1) Simple LC tuned couplers (in-phase). Smarthome 2406H

2) Twin tuned transformer couplers (in-phase).

3) Twin tuned transformer couplers (out of phase).

 

Option 3 was provided by some manufacturers to allow 240V X10 devices to receive/transmit. To the best of my knowledge, Insteon is transmitted "In-phase" on both legs of your home wiring. As a result, option 3 should not be used. Many of the tuned transformer couplers could be connected in either and "in-phase" or "inverting" configuration by swapping the connections. Please post your specific model.

 

Of the above, the Smarthome 2406H appears to work very well with Insteon. The simple LC tuning does a good job of coupling the signal and the narrow bandwidth allows noise rejection.

 

Beyond the above, I do have two dual band PLM's in my configuration. I do not believe these have the range of a typical accesspoint.

 

IM

[FredT]

Problem is now solved.

 

I moved the ISY and PLM away from my cable modem and wireless router and wired to another circuit. Everything works as it should and I no longer need the X10 wired bridge.

 

I suspect RF from wither the cable modem or router was some on leaking into the ISY/PLM and interfering with their signals.

 

Thanks for all the help.

 

...Fred