ISY and Dual Band

[Joe Dunn]

I'm transitioning from X10 to Insteon. I began by replacing burned out X10 devices with Insteon devices that I programed for X10. Then I installed a ISY-99i and began converting devices from X10 to Insteon mode. So far so good.

 

Now I see Dual Band devices. Will they work well in and ISY system? If so, what advantage would they provide.

 

Thanks,

 

Granddude[/size]

[LeeG]

The RF aspects of an Insteon mesh network is automatic and autonomous. The ISY (nor any application) has no control over it. It is all managed by the Insteon devices themselves.

[ergodic]

"mess network" -- Does that go under "Spoonerism" or "Freudian slip?"

 

 

For the OP: the dual-band devices are an effort to get away from power-line signaling exclusively and its various problems by adding RF signaling.

 

If your system is working reasonably well already there's no compelling reason to upgrade exising devices IMO. The dual-band devices are largely the same as their earlier power-line-only counterparts and as LeeG said, you have no control over how the signaling operates.

 

But if you have high noise level or power-line Inteon signal attenuation on your branch circuits that you can't find or fix, they may be of help.

 

For example, I can plug a dual-band lamplinc into a UPS isolated by a filterlinc and still have reliable control. That is a so-called 'signal-sucker' circuit which would not work at all without the dual-band RF signaling to the lamplinc, so there's one clear advantage.

 

The flip side of this is a branch circuit with high noise level. For example power-line noise generated by fluorescents with electronic ballasts, some CF bulbs, switching power supplies in PCs and wall-warts and the like. This noise can interfere with the detection of Insteon power-line signals. The dual-band helps communication reliability with that case too.

 

But the bottom-line issue is that until everything you have is dual-band you'll still need to isolate and fix the noise and signal-sucking, to prevent your other, non-dual-band devices from having problems. So if you have the option to get everything you need in dual-band I'd definitely consider that route. I don't think some devices like keypadlinc dimmers and outletlinc relays are even available yet in dual-band, but I assume they're all coming.

[oberkc]

Will they work well in and ISY system?

 

Yes (in case this was unclear).

 

If so, what advantage would they provide.

 

Besides the potential communication advantages already mentioned, dual band devices MAY allow you to operate without separate access points, or hard-wired signalincs, or the equivalent.

[LeeG]

Mess is what you get when not fully awake yet! That will teach me to take a nap after dinner.

[hoopty]

Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned pertaining to the RF function of the dual-band units, is the ability to add RF only devices such as motion sensors and the Venstar thermostat adapter. If you ever intend on adding any of these you'll need the RF capability of dual-band.

[Joe Dunn]

The feedback prompted me to think about my storage shed. I would like to add an Insteon switch. But, the only power comes in on a GFI protected circuit which I believe blocks signals. If I installed a dual band switch in the storage shed I think I would have to install a second dual band device to complete the connection. Would it be a good idea to scatter a few dual and devices around the house? What is the range of a dual band Device?

 

Thanks

[LeeG]

Not all GFCI block Insteon signals. I power my dock with a GFCI breaker and have had an Insteon device down there for years which works fine.

 

Distance is difficult to predict. Smarthome describes line of site. A metal shed would not receive an RF signal. A wood shed depends on what is between the device in the shed and closest Dual Band device in the house. It comes down to installing it and see if it works.

[ergodic]

Like anything involving RF, it's mostly the antenna. The dual-band device antennas are in the back of the device, so range will depend on whether it's in a metal or plastic j-box, how high up it is, what the walls are, and so forth. Access points are normally sited out in the open.

 

I've not had any problem with GFI outlets and Insteon. My PLM is plugged into one. I tested the 15A/20A Levitons you get from Home Depot when I did a remodel 3 years ago before I installed them, and found no issue with those. (Arc-fault breakers are a different story.) I don't have any GFI panel breakers.

 

If you're trying to reach a outbuilding that is some distance away, you usually will be able to do that with powerline signaling, unless there is something along the branch circuit that would interfere with it. Plug in a lamplinc and try it and see. You can always use one or two access points if you need to bridge across that way.

 

Dual-band devices do improve communication reliability but I don't know that I'd depend on them to solve a specific Insteon communication problem.

[apostolakisl]

Any new devices I am buying now dual band. The don't cost that much more and keeps the headace of powerline noise/suckers to a minimum. If I were to be starting over, I would buy everything that way.

[Teken]

Any new devices I am buying now dual band. The don't cost that much more and keeps the headace of powerline noise/suckers to a minimum. If I were to be starting over, I would buy everything that way.

 

I would like to add that my thought process is in line with apostolakisl. With respect to using all dual band Insteon devices. My view is that there is no down side going this route besides the obvious costs.

 

Having said that, if costs is a factor one of the best solutions is to deploy dual band devices in all four corners of the house, and ensuring they are coupling each leg of single phase electrical system.

 

This is a great compromise and allows you to have great RF range for those RF motion, remote controls.

 

Another thing to consider, based on the feed back on many senior members. Installing a set of Access Points on either side of the home, center, or different levels of the home. It has been reported that the AP's RF output is a lot stronger than any of the dual band devices.

 

If you use metal J box's as is required in Canada, this does reduce the RF output of the dual band device you're installing.

 

I am in the middle of doing this exact set up for my basement reno as I have metal studs going up which may interfere with the RF aspects of my install.

 

Good luck.

 

Teken . . .

[Joe Dunn]

I have learned a lot from this forum. I feel confident to move forward with my transition to Insteon.

 

I have a number of non dual band devices on my shelf to be installed. So, it would be too expensive to replace them with dual banders. The idea of putting dual banders on the corners makes a lot of sense in my situation.

 

On one hand my building codes require metal conduit and metal boxes. On the other, almost all my devices are within 60 ft of each other. So I think dual banding is a good idea for me.

 

Thanks,

[johnnyt]

I thought I read somewhere that too many access points can be a problem. Maybe it's different with those because they're stronger?

 

 

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Teken]

I thought I read somewhere that too many access points can be a problem. Maybe it's different with those because they're stronger?

 

 

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

I'll let you all know when I install 8 of them in my house next week! All kidding aside, my intent is to confirm some of the observations senior members have made in the past.

 

The other aspect is that I can't handle seeing all of these wall warts all over the house! I will reply back and let you all know what happens.

[Brian H]

May depend on the Access Points Hardware Revision and firmware in it.

We do know there is a major hardware difference between V1 ones and V2 ones.

Probably even between my original 1.0Rs and 1.6s. Let alone my latest 2.5s.

[ergodic]

Teken:

 

I'll be very interested in what you find.

 

My experience in my own house (conventional 2,000 sq. ft. 2-story), is that adding access points beyond the two I have at the breaker box has never resolved any Insteon communication problem.

 

My sense - without doing much testing - is that the only issue additional access points alone are likely to resolve is simply degraded signal strength because of distance.

 

The dual-band devices are a slightly different story, since in addition to beefing up the RF mesh, it allows the device itself to receive RF commands directly -- in theory at least bypassing power-line signal issues. That's a welcome improvement. But until everything you have is dual-band you still need to fix any power-line signal problems for your other devices that aren't dual band. And of course if you have RF interference or signal strength issues at the device box you now have the same problem in a different form.

 

I've also come to the conclusion that quite a number of the inexplicable Insteon "communication" problems are related to the devices and firmware, not necessarily power-line issues. I have fought a few of those over the last couple of years.

[Teken]

May depend on the Access Points Hardware Revision and firmware in it.

We do know there is a major hardware difference between V1 ones and V2 ones.

Probably even between my original 1.0Rs and 1.6s. Let alone my latest 2.5s.

 

Brian H,

 

Would you be so kind as to clarify your observations. As to which AP version(s) appeared to be the strongest in terms of RF power output.

 

Teken . . .

[Teken]

Teken:

 

I'll be very interested in what you find.

 

My experience in my own house (conventional 2,000 sq. ft. 2-story), is that adding access points beyond the two I have at the breaker box has never resolved any Insteon communication problem.

 

My sense - without doing much testing - is that the only issue additional access points alone are likely to resolve is simply degraded signal strength because of distance.

 

The dual-band devices are a slightly different story, since in addition to beefing up the RF mesh, it allows the device itself to receive RF commands directly -- in theory at least bypassing power-line signal issues. That's a welcome improvement. But until everything you have is dual-band you still need to fix any power-line signal problems for your other devices that aren't dual band. And of course if you have RF interference or signal strength issues at the device box you now have the same problem in a different form.

 

I've also come to the conclusion that quite a number of the inexplicable Insteon "communication" problems are related to the devices and firmware, not necessarily power-line issues. I have fought a few of those over the last couple of years.

 

I agree on all points stated above. The first thing is to identify and resolve any signal suckers, and noise makers.

 

From there, ensuring the proper coupling of both legs of the power supply is paramount. Next, on the hit list is to ensure that the RF dual band devices, or AP's are deployed in even distribution point to ensure the shortest path for the Insteon devices to communicate.

 

The only reason I am doing this is to future proof my installation and have extra tools on hand to perform random tests and see what comes out of them.

 

Currently, my Insteon network is 100% and rock solid. Nothing ever gets missed unless the kids decide to install a cell charger, wall wart in *un-designated* outlet!

 

Kids . . .

 

Teken . . .