andrewm Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 I had a situation where an IOLINC I installed was activating a KPL button light for no apparent reason. Deeper investigation revealed that there was an active entry in the KPL link database relating to the IOLINC; but this link didn't show up in the ISY Scenes - it was probably a remnant from some testing I did with the IOLINC a year or so ago. I didn't see a matching link entry in the IOLINC's database. The KPL link entry was as follows (annotated with hex values): 3936 (0f60) 162 (a2) 1 (01) 1243294 (12.f8.9e) 16719621 (ff.1f.05) The 162 (a2) value incorrectly indicates the link is in use. Note that the ISY database matched the device database. This was somewhat painful to diagnose and brings up a number of issues: The ISY diagnostics I know about didn't help catch this - it required manual examination. It seems like there should be an ability for the ISY to re-evaluate the link database and detect issues such as this, maybe using some technique similar to that used when adding a new device and keeping existing links. God knows how many other such "half-links" I have causing problems. I used the SAVE option from the link database dialog so I could examine / search the link database table in a text editor. The XML document ISY produces for this uses decimal values, which is at odds with the ISY UI, Insteon itself, and generally a pita! Can you not write this out using hex numbers?! The ability to search for a device in the ISY UI using it's Insteon address would be very helpful In the end I managed to get the database entry invalidated (by recreating the link in a scene and then deleting it) and everything's now working.
Michel Kohanim Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 andrewm, The ISY diagnostics I know about didn't help catch this - it required manual examination. It seems like there should be an ability for the ISY to re-evaluate the link database and detect issues such as this, maybe using some technique similar to that used when adding a new device and keeping existing links. God knows how many other such "half-links" I have causing problems. I am unclear as to what ISY didn't catch. There was a link in your KPL that was not in ISY and are you saying that ISY didn't show mismatch? If ISY shows and the device does not have then there's a problem. Also, what firmware version are you using? [*] I used the SAVE option from the link database dialog so I could examine / search the link database table in a text editor. The XML document ISY produces for this uses decimal values, which is at odds with the ISY UI, Insteon itself, and generally a pita! Can you not write this out using hex numbers?! The XML in question was NOT created for human consumption but to be LOADED back to the dialog (the load button). So, I really do not see the value in the overhead of formatting parts of the XML with HEX. [*]The ability to search for a device in the ISY UI using it's Insteon address would be very helpful Sounds good. With kind regards, Michel
andrewm Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 I am unclear as to what ISY didn't catch. There was a link in your KPL that was not in ISY and are you saying that ISY didn't show mismatch? If ISY shows and the device does not have then there's a problem. Also, what firmware version are you using? Sorry - meant to tell you I was on 3.1.16. I've since upgraded to 3.1.17 The link databases in both the KPL and IOLINC matched ISY's own records - there was no mismatch on those. The link was in the KPL link database but wasn't in the IOLINC's database (I don't think - I don't do this regularly), so I think the link was broken and the KPL was responding to the wrong group command. I don't know how the link became broken - I only ever link things via the ISY, but I had taken that device out of my network a year or so ago. Stuff happens! My point is that the KPL believed it was supposed to respond to the IOLINC, but there was no indication of that in ISY's Network tree (ie no scene) or diagnostic tool that I could run to compare (or evaluate) the link database against the network tree and help me identify the problematic link. Put another way, your link comparison tool makes sure that the ISY link database is in sync with the device's database. It doesn't verify that the ISY UI's representation of the network matches what is in the link database. That shouldn't happen, but it did in this case and I spotted it and could work it out. I wonder how many other similar issues I've got that I'm not noticing or just putting down to general flakiness - a diagnostic tool would answer that question. The XML in question was NOT created for human consumption but to be LOADED back to the dialog (the load button). So, I really do not see the value in the overhead of formatting parts of the XML with HEX. Point taken but it can serve a useful purpose because it's searchable and editable. I used it to search for a link to the IOLINC (after translating from hex address to decimal). I could also have edited it and reloaded it to fix the bad link (again I'd have had to do the numeric conversion). Creating the values in the doc as hex values should be low hanging fruit - I'd hope it would be pretty much zero overhead. Thanks, - Andrew
Michel Kohanim Posted January 25, 2012 Posted January 25, 2012 Hi Andrew, Thanks so very much for the details. Text/hex version makes sense especially if you want to search ... my only concern is that once we do that, then we would have to define/explain our whole XML schema and things get quickly out of hand. This said, I do see your point and we'll see what we can do. With kind regards, Michel
andrewm Posted January 25, 2012 Author Posted January 25, 2012 my only concern is that once we do that, then we would have to define/explain our whole XML schema and things get quickly out of hand. I take your point, but actually I'd see hex representation as avoiding that situation, since it would make the associations with the Insteon device specs and your own link database listing more obvious. The current decimal format obscures those unnecessarily imo. As someone who only looks at this stuff only occasionally, ie I don't make a career of it but it's certainly within my capabilities, I have to relearn it every time I analyze an issue. And I'll use the tools I'm most familiar with to solve a problem. Anything that makes that process easier is to be encouraged! Thanks - Andrew
Michel Kohanim Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 Hi Andrew, I do not think we are talking about the same thing. The reason we use decimal is because it's easier on ISY (instead of parsing an already integer value to hex string representation) and less resource intensive. Again, I do not want the XML interface itself to become the diagnostic tool. This said, the Admin Console should do what you want such as searching for a device in the Event Viewer/Link Viewer. With kind regards, Michel
andrewm Posted January 27, 2012 Author Posted January 27, 2012 Hi Andrew, I do not think we are talking about the same thing. The reason we use decimal is because it's easier on ISY (instead of parsing an already integer value to hex string representation) and less resource intensive. Again, I do not want the XML interface itself to become the diagnostic tool. This said, the Admin Console should do what you want such as searching for a device in the Event Viewer/Link Viewer. Actually I think you're on a slight slippery slope there, searching for devices, because the links table doesn't display "devices" - it displays a table of entries with each containing 8 unlabeled bytes. The format can be found, but isn't shown. Now if you were to identify / label the fields in the list, then searching for a device would make more sense - and would be extremely helpful. In fact that'd be true in many places in ISY - I go back to my earlier comment that for those of us who don't do this for a living, anything that can be done to make life easier would be appreciated; field labels / breakdown would be very helpful (incidentally it's another benefit of looking at the XML). As useful as this would be, it really this isn't getting at the main issue I was trying to solve in my original post, namely to find where things had got out of whack. A diagnostics tool to identify where the link database (even better, all the link databases) does not match ISY's Network representation, and to provide some assurance of "system integrity" would be invaluable.
Michel Kohanim Posted January 27, 2012 Posted January 27, 2012 Hi Andrew, I agree with all your points. At the end of the day, the Admin Console should give you the diagnostic tools you need. With kind regards, Michel
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