Need Help Troubleshooting

[upstatemike]

Things have been working really well this week and I am very happy with my ISY. I do have one problem that I have not been able to track down and I am hoping someone wqill have a suggestion...

 

I have a keypad at the bottom of the stairs to the third floor so I can operate them without going up there. There are 5 groups of lights, 1 for each keypad button. Each light is cross linked to all ather lights in the group and to the groups keypad button. (all devices are controllers in their group).

 

The lights in each group are not linked to anything except the other members of their keypad group. There are no programs or schedules controlling these groups. It should be impossible for them to operate unless one of the devices is physically operated or if I send them commands from the ISY.

 

A couple of times per day the Keypad Group D devices turn themselves ON. I know it is not due to stray links in individual devices because the entire group turns on, (including the Keypad button D LED).

 

Looking at the ISY log I see each device has an entry that says STATUS ON at the time the group turned on... this just happened again 30 miniutes ago. (One device always says STATUS 2% which is odd because it is an Icon relay).

 

What does STATUS mean exactly? Doesn't that imply the group was switched on by manually turning on one of the linked switches? (maybe I have a ghost?)

 

How can I narrow down what the actual trigger was that turned the group on? In other words, how can I find the address of the link that triggered the group?

[upstatemike]

Another point I forgot to mention is that when the lights go on, the ISY is aware of it and reflects the status correctly.

[MikeB]

This might be a long shot, but do you have an Elk integrated with your ISY? I've seen reports of Insteon lights going on randomly from Elk users in the past...

[upstatemike]

This might be a long shot, but do you have an Elk integrated with your ISY? I've seen reports of Insteon lights going on randomly from Elk users in the past...

 

No. No Elk nor any other Insteon controller... just the ISY.

[Sub-Routine]

This might be a long shot, but do you have an Elk integrated with your ISY? I've seen reports of Insteon lights going on randomly from Elk users in the past...

 

No. No Elk nor any other Insteon controller... just the ISY.

 

Isn't this you?

 

I don't know what a Stargate is but when I first read your post I thought X10 especially when I read

(maybe I have a ghost?)

 

Rand

[MikeB]

No. No Elk nor any other Insteon controller... just the ISY.

 

Well, that's an odd one Mike.... you'd think that if your entire group is coming on that it must be SOMETHING coming from the ISY...

 

Is there a RemoteLinc or ControlLinc that's part of this group that could be flaking out? Maybe a switch with a physical paddle issue that randomly clicks on?

[upstatemike]

I have never heard of a "self activating" switch paddle issue. I think my next steps will be:

 

1- Fire up PowerHome again and interrogate each device in the group to see if there is something unexpected in the link tables of the individual devices.

 

2- Delete the group so that none of the devices have any links at all, and then watch for a few days to see if I have problems with a single device.

 

3- Do a factory reset on each device.

 

4- Manually crete the group again and see if the problem is gone.

 

I am pretty sure it is not an X10 issue because I sent an "All Units On" for each house code and none of the switches reacted.

[upstatemike]

I don't know what a Stargate is but when I first read your post I thought X10 especially when I read

(maybe I have a ghost?)

 

Rand

 

A Stargate is a Home Automation Controller. You can get details about it at http://www.jdstechnologies.com/ or at Coccoontech.

 

Briefly it is a hardware based controller that has been around for a long time but still has a lot more features than most modern controllers. I continue to use it because it does a lot of things that the Elk can't although I plan to use the Elk for fire, security, and motion controlled lights.

[Guest]

Did you try removing and then and restoring the devices in this group? I had to do this once when turning on the one button on a keypadlinc triggered devices linked to another button on the same device.

 

Just a thought and easy enough to try with the ISY (would hate to tap/tap rinse and repeat that ).

[upstatemike]

Did you try removing and then and restoring the devices in this group? I had to do this once when turning on the one button on a keypadlinc triggered devices linked to another button on the same device.

 

Just a thought and easy enough to try with the ISY (would hate to tap/tap rinse and repeat that ).

 

That might fix it but it won't help me understand why it broke... I am scanning the raw link tables of the switches now with PowerHome to see exactly what is in there. Next I will remove all the devices from the group and watch them separately for any unexpected activation. Later in the week I will create the group again and see if I still have the problem.

[Michel Kohanim]

upstatemike,

 

Please also note we witnessed a Christmas tree using KPL version 1.5 and 1.6 (under some conditions, they would active/deactivate their groups on their own). Please make sure your KPLs are not 1.5/1.6.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Did you try removing and then and restoring the devices in this group? I had to do this once when turning on the one button on a keypadlinc triggered devices linked to another button on the same device.

 

Just a thought and easy enough to try with the ISY (would hate to tap/tap rinse and repeat that ).

 

That might fix it but it won't help me understand why it broke... I am scanning the raw link tables of the switches now with PowerHome to see exactly what is in there. Next I will remove all the devices from the group and watch them separately for any unexpected activation. Later in the week I will create the group again and see if I still have the problem.

[upstatemike]

The KeypadLinc is a version 1.4 and the links look pretty clean. Button D (keypad group 6) is linked to the correct switches plus ISY group 84.

 

The switches linked to the scene have some odd links in tyheir tales. They are linked to each other in switch group 0/button 1, but also have several duplicate links with no level or ramp values that are listed as buttons -1, -2 etc. Maybe these are old links flagged as unused?

 

In any case, restoring these switches does not remove these ghost links so I will probably delete the devices and then add them back so that the link tables can be re-written from scratch. This is probably not related to my problem however since the entire scene goes on by itself.

 

My next step is to remove the devices from the scene (delete the scene) and start monitoring the switches independently.

[Sub-Routine]

A factory reset on the switches should delete any links and X10 addresses. Then use Restore Device on each one.

[Algorithm]

I am pretty sure it is not an X10 issue because I sent an "All Units On" for each house code and none of the switches reacted.

 

Like Rand, the first thing I thought of when reading your original post, was X-10. But it's strange that it's affecting the whole scene, and none of the others, though it could be X-10 scene addresses within the switches. I'm not at all sure that SmartHome Insteon devices respond to X-10 'All Units On' commands, so that test might not be conclusive. When you get to the factory reset stage, as Rand said, it will clear out all X-10 addresses, which should definitely eliminate that!

[AD8BC]

I had a weird anomaly with one of my KPLs. But it went away after I re-downloaded the link tables from the ISY.

 

Try restoring that device. If not, try to see what does turn it on and restore that device.

[upstatemike]

I have factory reset everything and reloaded the keypad and all of the switches but it is still happening. I guess the next step will be to remove all but the keypad and 1 switch from the scene. If that 1 switch continues to go on then I will have narrowed it down to the keypad or the ISY as the source.

[Michel Kohanim]

upstatemike,

 

I am so very sorry for the inconvenience. This is indeed quite odd:

If ISY knows about the status of all the devices in the scene - when they are auto activated - then the problem is only one of the following:

1. Please go to Configuration->ELK ... please make sure both of your ELK IP address/Port are BLANK

2. There's either a program (or a bug) which causes ISY to send that group command. Please do be kind enough to check the log to see who/what issued the command.

3. KPL 1.5/1.6 but that has already been ruled out

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I have factory reset everything and reloaded the keypad and all of the switches but it is still happening. I guess the next step will be to remove all but the keypad and 1 switch from the scene. If that 1 switch continues to go on then I will have narrowed it down to the keypad or the ISY as the source.

[upstatemike]

upstatemike,

 

I am so very sorry for the inconvenience. This is indeed quite odd:

If ISY knows about the status of all the devices in the scene - when they are auto activated - then the problem is only one of the following:

1. Please go to Configuration->ELK ... please make sure both of your ELK IP address/Port are BLANK

2. There's either a program (or a bug) which causes ISY to send that group command. Please do be kind enough to check the log to see who/what issued the command.

3. KPL 1.5/1.6 but that has already been ruled out

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I checked the Elk configuration and all is blank.

 

According to the Stargate log, the last time the attic group went on was 17:44 yesterday. (Stargate is monitoring via hardwire connection to the loads so there is no interaction between it and ISY).

 

The ISY log shows that the D button scene in the butler pantry keypad activated at 17:44. This scene is normally activated by a program triggered from a motion sensor. It is in a high traffic area and probably cycles 15-20 times per hour.

 

It is interesting to note that the attic scene that is giving me a problem is 3rd floor keypad button D but I'm not sure that it being the same button on both keypads has any significance.

 

I would also need to see a second log entry relating the two scenes before drawing any conclusions.

 

Here is the ISY log for that time window:

 

Scene:Butler Keypad Grp D On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

Scene:Butler Keypad Grp D On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

 

Could there be a problem with the PLM link table such that group 84 (the problem scene) has some junk in it? Perhaps deleting the scene or restoring the entire PLM to clean things up?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello upstatemike,

 

Thanks so very much for the detailed response.

 

Please see my comments below.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I checked the Elk configuration and all is blank.

 

According to the Stargate log, the last time the attic group went on was 17:44 yesterday. (Stargate is monitoring via hardwire connection to the loads so there is no interaction between it and ISY).

 

The ISY log shows that the D button scene in the butler pantry keypad activated at 17:44. This scene is normally activated by a program triggered from a motion sensor. It is in a high traffic area and probably cycles 15-20 times per hour.

 

It is interesting to note that the attic scene that is giving me a problem is 3rd floor keypad button D but I'm not sure that it being the same button on both keypads has any significance.

Same button on both keypads should not be the problem.

 

I would also need to see a second log entry relating the two scenes before drawing any conclusions.

 

Here is the ISY log for that time window:

 

Scene:Butler Keypad Grp D On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

Scene:Butler Keypad Grp D On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

I agree with you! May I humbly suggest a printout of your topology? At the minimum, this will ease the process of finding the link between these devices/scenes.

 

Could there be a problem with the PLM link table such that group 84 (the problem scene) has some junk in it? Perhaps deleting the scene or restoring the entire PLM to clean things up?

It is possible but I wouldn't delete those scenes till we figure out the relationship between the two scenes (common devices/programs).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[upstatemike]

I have reviewed the topology and I don't see anything unusual. The attic switches are only associated to the third floor keypad button D scene and nothing else. I am simplifying things by removing all but one attic light from the scene so it is now simply 1 keypadlinc button and one switch. (This will save me electricity if it goes on in the middle of the night until I can get this resolved).

[Michel Kohanim]

upstatemike,

 

Thanks. I don't think the problem is any of your switches ... I am almost certain that you either ISY on its own (bug) or a program within ISY is the culprit. We just have to figure out which!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I have reviewed the topology and I don't see anything unusual. The attic switches are only associated to the third floor keypad button D scene and nothing else. I am simplifying things by removing all but one attic light from the scene so it is now simply 1 keypadlinc button and one switch. (This will save me electricity if it goes on in the middle of the night until I can get this resolved).

[upstatemike]

1 program ran at 17:44 yesterday. It was:

 

Mailbox On

 

If

Time is Sunset + 20 minutes

Then

Set Scene 'Mailbox Scene' On

Else

-No Actions-

 

The mailbox scene has the following devices in it:

Laundry Keypad Button C

Outside Driveway Display

Outside Mailbox Light

 

All logged events at 17:44 yesterday-

 

Scene:Mailbox Scene On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

Laundry Keypad Btn C Status 100% 2/9/08 17:44 System Log

Outside Driveway Display Status 100% 2/9/08 17:44 System Log

Outside Mailbox Light Status 100% 2/9/08 17:44 System Log

Scene:Butler Keypad Grp D On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

Scene:Butler Keypad Grp D On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

 

So now I will watch for the next activiation and see if any of this information is common to more than one event.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello upstatemike,

 

Are any of the following devices KPL 1.5 or 1.6:

Laundry Keypad Button C

Outside Driveway Display

Outside Mailbox Light

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

1 program ran at 17:44 yesterday. It was:

Laundry Keypad Button C

Outside Driveway Display

Outside Mailbox Light

 

Mailbox On

 

If

Time is Sunset + 20 minutes

Then

Set Scene 'Mailbox Scene' On

Else

-No Actions-

 

The mailbox scene has the following devices in it:

 

All logged events at 17:44 yesterday-

 

Scene:Mailbox Scene On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

Laundry Keypad Btn C Status 100% 2/9/08 17:44 System Log

Outside Driveway Display Status 100% 2/9/08 17:44 System Log

Outside Mailbox Light Status 100% 2/9/08 17:44 System Log

Scene:Butler Keypad Grp D On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

Scene:Butler Keypad Grp D On 255 2/9/08 17:44 Scheduler Log

 

So now I will watch for the next activiation and see if any of this information is common to more than one event.

[upstatemike]

No. All Keypadlincs are 1.4

 

Driveway and mailbox are relay switches.

[upstatemike]

The attic lights went on again at 7:18 this morning (per the Stargate log) ISY did NOT reflect that they had turnrd on.

 

All of the attic lights turned on even though I had removed all but one of them from the scene. The ones removed are NOT part of any other scene. The keypadlinc button LED is NOT on.

 

Even though I did a factory reset on these switches, they are acting like they are still linked to each other somehow. This is an example of where I wish I had a way to query the local X10 address to confirm that there is not one set in these switches (or if there is, what address it is).

 

I may have to shut off the ISY for 24 hours to see if the switches still go on by themselves. I also had another pair of linked switches in another area turn on yesterday evening.